Old Ale Recipe Critique

I was looling through the beerstyle guidelines and I came across "Old Ale". I read more about it, and it appears to be a style that I really enjoy, darker ale, winter warmer type of beers. So I decided to brew one up in a few days. I just bottled a nottinham fermented ale today and washed up a huge jar of nottinham to pitch into this beer in a few days. I still have time to adjust the recipe as I won't grind grain for a few days just prior to brewing.

6 gallon batch

15.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 86.96 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.80 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 5.80 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.45 %
1.00 oz Summit [18.00 %] (60 min) Hops 44.4 IBU
0.50 oz Summit [18.00 %] (5 min) Hops 4.4 IBU
0.50 oz Summit [18.00 %] (1 min) Hops 1.0 IBU



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.078 SG

Est Final Gravity: 1.020
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.59
Bitterness: 49.8 IBU
Est Color: 15.8 SRM


I plan on mashing this at 153 for an hour, collecting a ton of runnings and boiling for a long time to get down to 6 gallons.

Looks pretty good. I'd think it would come out even better with Maris Otter instead of straight 2 row. It'll be a nice, simple, malty beer. I say go for it.

carnevoodoo said:

Looks pretty good. I'd think it would come out even better with Maris Otter instead of straight 2 row. It'll be a nice, simple, malty beer. I say go for it.

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I agree with you %100. Although the style is supposed to be English...I am also tossing around the idea of using golden promise.

what do you think about adding a pound or two of soft red wheat?

I am thinking maybe I jack the IBU's up to 70 or so as well with some late hop additions.....

The key to making an Old Ale to style is time. The recipe matters to a certain degree, but aging is very important. You need to let it sit for a good 6 months at least before opening one. But I'd even go a year if you're patient. Old ales haves flavor and aroma notes that cannot be achieved by technique or formulation, you just have to let time do it's thing.

Also, as far as the recipe, it looks fine by me. You could bump the munich up to 2 or 3 pounds but that's just personal preferences. Good luck with it.

PS: the tip about bumping up the IBU isn't a bad idea as well. This isn't a really hoppy style of beer, but you may want to increase bitterness for two reasons. First, it's a big beer so higher bitterness will balance out the malty nature of the style. Second, extended aging will also reduce bitterness so you may want to compensate by hopping a bit more initially. I did an Old Ale last summer with about 45 IBU and I cannot taste them at all. 70 sounds like a good number to aim for.

mithion said:

The key to making an Old Ale to style is time. The recipe matters to a certain degree, but aging is very important. You need to let it sit for a good 6 months at least before opening one. But I'd even go a year if you're patient. Old ales haves flavor and aroma notes that cannot be achieved by technique or formulation, you just have to let time do it's thing.

Also, as far as the recipe, it looks fine by me. You could bump the munich up to 2 or 3 pounds but that's just personal preferences. Good luck with it.

PS: the tip about bumping up the IBU isn't a bad idea as well. This isn't a really hoppy style of beer, but you may want to increase bitterness for two reasons. First, it's a big beer so higher bitterness will balance out the malty nature of the style. Second, extended aging will also reduce bitterness so you may want to compensate by hopping a bit more initially. I did an Old Ale last summer with about 45 IBU and I cannot taste them at all. 70 sounds like a good number to aim for.

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As far as aging goes, do you age it for the most part in a secondary carboy or in the bottle?

If you have a carboy, I would age it in the carboy for a few months. And then age it the bottle for a long time as well.

Bumping out of interest

What makes an Old Ale? Bell's Old Ale is amazing and I'm looking to make something similar.

Late hop additions are pretty out of style for these beers. Old ales are malt-forward beers, hops should be barely perceptible. I'd honestly just use a bittering hop addition, and that's it.

DavidSteel said:

What makes an Old Ale? Bell's Old Ale is amazing and I'm looking to make something similar.

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From what I've read of the guidlines, it's a style that has a lot of room. You can use many different grain bills with different flavors and still make Old Ale. Now three things it should have is moderate to high ABV (problably 6.5% up to 10 or 12%), the balance should favor malt over hops and it should have oxidation notes. Because of extended aging, it will have sherry like notes due to oxidation so it will have an almost wine like quality. Of course the 6.5% version will reach maturity earlier than a 12% version, but we're talking several months to several years of aging. One of the common Old Ales found here is the one from North Coast Brewing and it's called Old Stock Ale. Apparently this particular beer is a fine example of the style.

Old Stock Ale

mithion said:

From what I've read of the guidlines, it's a style that has a lot of room. You can use many different grain bills with different flavors and still make Old Ale. Now three things it should have is moderate to high ABV (problably 6.5% up to 10 or 12%), the balance should favor malt over hops and it should have oxidation notes. Because of extended aging, it will have sherry like notes due to oxidation so it will have an almost wine like quality. Of course the 6.5% version will reach maturity earlier than a 12% version, but we're talking several months to several years of aging. One of the common Old Ales found here is the one from North Coast Brewing and it's called Old Stock Ale. Apparently this particular beer is a fine example of the style.

Old Stock Ale

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Nice, can't wait to start developing mine down the road

i actually got started making a strong porter like recipe, and then I found this guideline and was very intrigued. More like a malt forward barley wine, or a slightly more bitter strong scotch ale?

Regardless, i am shooting for 8-9% ABV and something that will sure cellar well.

I am not 100% tied to the style guideline, so for me personal taste i am going to put some late hop additions in...just a very strong, dark, balanced ale that ages well is what I want. Something to serve at cellar temperature and sip on this fall.

I would think summit is too citrusy for an old ale, especially with those late additions.

also consider adding about half a pound of molasses to the boil. treacle/molasses is a very common ingredient in old ales and provides a nice flavor addition.

KingBrianI said:

also consider adding about half a pound of molasses to the boil. treacle/molasses is a very common ingredient in old ales and provides a nice flavor addition.

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That is a great idea. The grains are mashing at 154 right now.

It may not be an old ale, maybe closer to a barleywine or strong ale, but I think it is going to be nice.


Batch Size: 6.00 gal

Boil Size: 8.5 gallons
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: Brew Pot (12.5 gal) and Cooler (48 qt)



Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
14.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 75.27 %
3.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 16.13 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.38 %
0.35 lb Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 1.88 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.34 %
1.00 oz Summit [18.00 %] (90 min) Hops 45.2 IBU
1.00 oz Summit [18.00 %] (15 min) Hops 21.0 IBU
1.00 oz Summit [18.00 %] (6 min) Hops 9.9 IBU



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.084

Bitterness: 76.2 IBU
Est Color: 16.7 SRM

Well, it's my opinion there is very little difference between old ales and barleywines. Several commercial old ales could be called a barleywine and meet BJCP requirements completely. I guess on average barleywines are a bit stronger, and can have more hop character, but they're almost the same thing. I like molasses for the fact that it helps distinguish an old ale from a barleywine.

Well, I added about 4 oz of mollases to the end of the boil, that was all that I had left in the kitchen. I collected about 8 gallons of wort, boiled down to a hair less than 6 gallons. The beer is currently sitting at 85 degrees. I have two jars of washed nottingham and one satched that I am going to hydrate. This should be a ton of yeast, and I am going to oxygenate plenty. I would really love to see 1.085 but I have my doubts...I haven't hit my gravity marks very well with big beers in the past. The color looks stupendous though.

Well, I ended up with 1.083...not to shabby! I pitched my yeast at 72 degrees and have the ferementer sitting in 58 degrees ambient..it wont be long and blast off!

The sad thing is I had six gallons in my brewpot, but with such a large grain bill and 3 ounces of hops there was a lot of trub. I only ended up with 5 gallons in the ferementer.

Is there any way around this? Maybe pour the beer from the pot into the fermenter through a wire screen strainer? Sheesh, waisting a little cream ale doesn't bug me...but 1.083 ale flushed down the drain with the trub sucks arse.

It is still going to give me about 50 bottles of old ale/barley wine!

Fermentation is going along great, I am trying to keep it on the higher end of nottinghams range, 66-68 degrees. I am looking for the yeast to add a very small amount of character to this beer. I also think the warmer temperature tends to encourage a more complete attenuation.

I do have question to ponder. Since I have a chance coming up in a few weeks, do you think it may be a good idea to add anything to the secondary fermenter or even to primary to kick this thing up a notch or two? Maybe some oak chips/cubes soaked in Cognac or bourbon? I was also thinking of adding a pound of brown sugar to the primary.......maybe I should just leave it alone.

In my recipe, I add 3 lbs of dried fruit that have been rehydrated by covering them with boiling water and letting them steep until the water is cool enough. What I did was to wait for primary fermentation to slow down considerably, then simply through the sweet water + fruit mixture directly into the fermentor. That will kick the fermentation back up. It adds a lot of character to the beer. I don't know if that's what you want however.

mithion said:

In my recipe, I add 3 lbs of dried fruit that have been rehydrated by covering them with boiling water and letting them steep until the water is cool enough. What I did was to wait for primary fermentation to slow down considerably, then simply through the sweet water + fruit mixture directly into the fermentor. That will kick the fermentation back up. It adds a lot of character to the beer. I don't know if that's what you want however.

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What kind of dried fruit? Maybe raisins would be appropriate or just a basic mix?

I did 1lb of Apricots, 1lb of Raisins and 1lb of Plums. Be mindful though that the fruit will cloud your beer. Apart from that, the effect is superb.

what do you suppose the effect is on gravity? Do you suppose the fruits are 75% fermentable?

That's a really good question. One that I've been asking myself.
The sugars in fruit a very simple and therefore should be highly fermentable. Usually, when people add sugar during fermentation, they end up with a final gravity that's lower than originally calculated. I think what happens is that the yeast gets really excited about these simple sugars which I compare to fast food: satisfying on the short term but not a long term nutritious option. When they are done consuming the simple sugars, they will then continue for a little while on the maltose that was left before they settle down again. It would be hard to say what the effect on original gravity would be, but it's certain that it will increase it slightly so you'll end up with a bit more alcohol. And your final gravity will also be a bit lower than you might expect.

Man so many options. I am for sure going to make inverted sugar tonight, slightly caramelized and add a pound of that...but since this is a barley wine...technically, I think some raisins boiled and puree'd may be appropriate as well. I defenitly would like this thing to finish dry, but not too dry. 1.020-1.024 would be perfect.

My understanding is that fruit additions generally do not raise alcohol level, as they add both sugar and water to the fermentor. Just as you wouldn't expect a gallon of 1.040 juice to increase the abv of a 1.090 OG beer, you wouldn't expect whole fruits to raise abv, either.

maskednegator said:

My understanding is that fruit additions generally do not raise alcohol level, as they add both sugar and water to the fermentor. Just as you wouldn't expect a gallon of 1.040 juice to increase the abv of a 1.090 OG beer, you wouldn't expect whole fruits to raise abv, either.

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That makes sense. If the gravity of the fruit/sweet water mixture is lower than the wort, the weighted average OG of the wort and addition combined will be less than the wort alone. Good point!

I added 1.7 pounds of dark candi sugar to the fermenter, I melted it into hot water first of course. This should add about 10 points to my OG.

OG = 1.094, after five days with nottingham it is at 1.023! The krausen fell and it is starting to wind down. I am thinking over the next two weeks of primary fermentation I think it will drop to 1.020....and be 9.7% ABV.

I just hope my summit hops didn't ruin this thing with onion flavor.

Although Summit is not quite the right kind of hops for this style of beer, you probably won't taste them that much 6 months to a year down the road. I wouldn't worry about it. It's gonna be a great beer.

mithion said:

Although Summit is not quite the right kind of hops for this style of beer, you probably won't taste them that much 6 months to a year down the road. I wouldn't worry about it. It's gonna be a great beer.

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I sure hope so! I am really pleased with the attenuation. I think adding the candi sugar after 4 days of fermentation really did the trick. The yeast were still in suspension last night, so they are still working on it. My concern now is that this will be too dry!

Bottled mine yesterday. It aged at around 50 degrees for 3 months in a secondary. NOt sure how long I can wait on the bottles and +1 on the hops additions. It is supposed to be a malty beer, almost a lager without lager yeast.

I agree that it no longer fits the old ale style. However, it does fit the american barley wine style guidelines..so that is technically what it is. I just hope it tastes good.

permo said:

I was looling through the beerstyle guidelines and I came across "Old Ale". I read more about it, and it appears to be a style that I really enjoy, darker ale, winter warmer type of beers. So I decided to brew one up in a few days. I just bottled a nottinham fermented ale today and washed up a huge jar of nottinham to pitch into this beer in a few days. I still have time to adjust the recipe as I won't grind grain for a few days just prior to brewing.

6 gallon batch

15.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 86.96 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.80 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 5.80 %
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.45 %
1.00 oz Summit [18.00 %] (60 min) Hops 44.4 IBU
0.50 oz Summit [18.00 %] (5 min) Hops 4.4 IBU
0.50 oz Summit [18.00 %] (1 min) Hops 1.0 IBU



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.078 SG

Est Final Gravity: 1.020
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.59
Bitterness: 49.8 IBU
Est Color: 15.8 SRM


I plan on mashing this at 153 for an hour, collecting a ton of runnings and boiling for a long time to get down to 6 gallons.

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Just an update on this guys, I just drank my first one this weekend. The recipes is modified as follows, for the final version.


15.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 86.96 %
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 5.80 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 5.80 %
0.50 pound wheat malt
0.25 lb Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.45 %
1.50 pound dark candi sugar
.25 pound mollases
1.00 ounce summit at 60
1.00 ounce summit at 10
1.00 ounce summit at 5
1.00 ounce summit at FO



Beer Profile
Actual Original Gravity: 1.095 SG
Actual Final Gravity: 1.020
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 9.5%
Bitterness: 61.8 IBU
Est Color: 16.8 SRM


This beer is really, really good. The munich gives the aroma and flavor just that extra bready, goodness. I split a bottle with my BMC Dad for an after dinner drink, and he couldn't stop swirling his glass to release the aromas which he described as watermelon and cantelope, and I have to say that I agree. It has that very typicaly, perfumy, alcohol aroma with melon fruit mixed in. I gave the beer 6 months in secondary and it is so smooth and aromatic.....I wish I could drink more..but it is so strong!

I think the beer morphed into a lighly hopped american style barley wine.

This sounds awesome, congrats! My next brew is going to be an Old Ale... I'm even more pumped now!

what temp did you ferment at?

hoppymonkey said:

what temp did you ferment at?

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67-70 degrees, right at the top range of the nottingham yeast. If I did this beer again I would use pacman yeast, just because I am more comfortable with it, but I don't think it could get much better......the beer is very, very nice...it allows you to experience the vinous, aromatic and malty aspects of barley wine without gettting blasted with typically american over the top bitterness. Not that I don't like that...but I think the bitterness level is about perfecto.