Plastic fermenter ongoing infection???

Last spring I brewed an oatmeal stout, then when opening the primary, it smelled like jet fuel. I thought it was probably fermented a little warm, racked it into a secondary for 4 weeks. On opening the secondary, there was a milky film on top of the beer and had the same horrible jet fuel smell. I dumped the batch and washed out the buckets. Fast forward, about 3 months ago, I made a robust porter and the same thing happened. WTF? Same thing...did I ferment too warm...well maybe. Dumped and cleaned things up. Another month later I made another porter...SAME THING but I know this one was fermented at 64 degrees. In the mean time, I have made several other beers and no problem with them, in fact some of the others are the best I have ever made. Ok...I just opened up the primary on a Scottish 60/- and it is the same (fermented at 62 degrees)! Now........I have figured that all 4 were made in the same primary fermenter, a typical plastic Ale Pale. All had the same breath taking jet fuel smell, all had a milky skim on the surface of the beer. When I clean my buckets, I scrub them, then after a hot rinse, I soak them in Oxyclean for a few days. Before I use them, I rinse them in hot water then a 1/2 hour soak in Star Stan. So...I know I have a problem. I will definitely not use this primary again.

I am worried about my other equipment now since it is ALL PLASTIC (plastic is porous). So...what changes do I need to make to clean and sanitize my equipment? Is soaking in Star Stan not good enough? Again...I have retired two buckets (primary used in the above 4 plus a secondary I also used with 2 of these). Maybe soak in Star Stan for a week after a strong Oxyclean scrub? Maybe use something else?

Any ideas?

What do you mean by scrub?

I have been lucky (knock on wood) I oxyclean after a batch in water right off a spigot I installed on hot water tank, rinse with water rinse with starsan. But I don't scrub buckets. Sometimes I use a micro towel to wash harder spots but that's rare.

Also, if you believe you fermented a few too warm, that's a seperate issue.

Did you at least taste the wort? I definitely would have racked under it and given it a solid taste test.

When you say "scrub" what do you mean?

I have used buckets exclusively over recent years. I rinse them immediately after I am done with them. I use only a wet paper towel and hot water. No soap. If they are a bit crusty from ferment I soak in PBW to loosen things up so it wipes out easily. I never "scrub" my buckets. Just wondering about the possibility of scratches.

If you are soaking a bucket in starsan for hours, and it is still harboring "bugs" I don't know that there is anything you are going to do to save it.

I rotate 6 buckets. I buy a couple new ones every year and retire older ones to yard work. I just look at it as the cost of brewing. I would rather retire a bucket early than have a bad batch or two. However, I did just buy two of the new Stainless Steel brewing buckets that are on the market - so, hoping to transition in that direction and not deal with replacing buckets anymore.

I do make notes of my fermenters and if I suspect a problem, I get a new one. They just don't cost enough to justify gambling on a couple infected beers.

Others will say go to glass. But, I like plastic buckets - so easy to work with. But they do have their flaws. That is why I am hoping these SS buckets are as good as they look.

Cotton wash cloth (soft) in warm water to remove residue. Then I rinse and fill the bucket with hot tap water and a good dose of oxyclean for a day or 2 soak. Nothing harsh used, they seem smooth.

By too warm of a ferment, the 2 possible ones were in the mid 70's at most. Initially I thought this was the problem but my last 2 "bad" batches were fermented in the mid to low 60's. Then I remembered they all had the same milky film on top of them and all 4 were fermented in the same primary. Again...I have made quite a few other beers in the mean time with no problems at all but these were made in other primary fermenters. The only problems I had were all in the same primary which I have now retired but I am worried about disinfecting other items and avoiding this in the future.

I would ditch your plastic tubing or anything plastic that was used with that fermenter.

The mid 70's is a problem, but I think you correctly identified this fermenter as the major problem. You should not need to soak your buckets for days and weeks to keep them clean and sanitary.

Do you grind grain yourself? Just thinking maybe grain dust/lactobacillus infection could be a possibility. You can't eliminate grain dust, but you can keep it under control and remove it from the area as much as possible.

I think that any brewer is constantly battling the prospect of infection..... the best thing to do is keep up with "best practice" (which it seems you are. And, be vigilant and observant in regard to the quality of your beer, and when you notice something going afoul, deal with it immediately. Which very well may involve replacing a bucket or tubing, or whatever.

Ok, I have two buckets and lids removed and will use them for farm use now and I had not thought about the tubing but that will also be eliminated too. I will go thru things, pitch some items and go back thru and sanitize everything again. And...I have made some excellent beers lately so I know my processes are sound.

Thanks

i'm done with fermenting in plastic for these reasons. i know my glass is clean. with plastic, i'm never sure. i'd rather use a fermenter without an odor.

i also have my questions about starsan's ability to kill wild yeast.

Originally I was using BTF Iodophor sanitizer (iodine) but have lately been using Star San. Are these equally effective as a sanitizer?

Blueflint said:

Originally I was using BTF Iodophor sanitizer (iodine) but have lately been using Star San. Are these equally effective as a sanitizer?

Click to expand...

I personally use both but prefer iodophor for most applications. Star san's ability to foam is nice when you need it but annoying when you don't. Star san is also stable indefinitely with distilled water, so I always keep some in a spray bottle. But for sanitizing carboys and bottles I always use iodophor.

To answer your question, I'm not sure of any scientific or other valid studies on which is more effective. I have used star san to wash yeast so I do question it's ability to kill wild yeast. It works great on bacteria without a doubt. My doubts about starsan i have not heard many others here or elsewhere mention so I could be wrong. Make sure to do your own research and decide what works best for you.

I have removed some buckets, pitched rubber tubing, pitched the spigots on my bottling bucket and some other minor things. I have went back thru and soaked the remaining buckets and all equipment with a strong dose of Oxyclean and allowed them to soak for 48 hours and then gave them a final rinse in hot tap water. I will be brewing this week and I will make sure everything gets a thorough soak in sanitizer...not sure which one yet but I have both of the above mentioned ones here at the house. I will also make sure I do not cross contaminate anything . Ohhh, and I dumped the washed yeast in the fridge...though I could not find any common link with these, eliminating all sources. Now if there was some economical stainless fermenter out there...

Thanks guys.

Tony

if you don't want to use glass, you can ferment in corny kegs. rig up a blowoff or use fermcap. you could also just use a big stainless pot if you could figure out a gasket/clip method to get a good seal (and drill a hole for an airlock).

me and a few other brewers on these forums ferment sour and clean beer in the same plastic fermentors without issue. i use star san to sanitize everything and have never had an unintentional sour beer. i would love to have this supposed infected bucket to ferment a beer in (i would pay for shipping), i guarantee it would ferment without an infection. unless that bucket has deep gouges in it i doubt there is anywhere an organism could hide from star san.

+1 on all the above.

I recommend to follow all the equipment the cooled wort and beer touches and make sure they are absolutely clean and sanitized. don't miss anything! Spigots are often overlooked, but you replaced them already. They are cleanable, when separated.

Siphons and racking canes can harbor bacteria too, and are notoriously hard to clean once they get dirty. So inspect and clean extremely well or replace those too. A soft cotton wad on a string can clean them better than water alone. Just don't scratch anything.

The stainless racking canes should be scrubbed well inside. I use a long brush or a wad of cotton on a string, pulling it through back and forth several times with some good cleaner (I even use Barkeepers Friend for that at times).

I hope you can eliminate the problem.

Do t overlook the two steps needed for proper cleanup. The first is cleaning w/ B Brite or a similar product. This removes particulates left behind by primary/secondary fermentation. I usually use 1 Tbsp per gallon of hot water & soak for about an hour. Then rinse thoroughly. I do this w/ both my BB's and kegs. I rarely have to employ a bottle brush or pad. Then only gently to avoid scratches to the BB's.
Next comes sanitation. A thorough rinse w/ StarSan should be sufficient.
Then you can dry & store. I'd recommend another StarSan rinse immediately before use.