Electric Keggle Question

Okay fellas....I am sure hoping someone can help me out here.

I am going to be converting an old keg into an electric keggle. I am wanting to use electricity....so if your reply is just going to be to tell me to use gas....no reason to waste your time. Now then, my idea is to basically create a beefed up hot plate. I found a 2600 watt 240v (wish I could find a 3000w) stove top element that I am thinking about buying. I would basically create a base to set this element in on and then slightly curve the coils up so that it is touching the bottom of the keg at all times. I would also be creating a highly reflective shield below the element to direct heat back up to the keggle. I am going to be creating an insulating blanket, so that should help a good bit. How long do you guys think it would take for an element like that to heat....say 10 gallons of 70 degree water to a boil. I thought about getting an oven element and just bending it to a circular shape, but I found out that all elements have this stuff called CalRod coating them....a ceramic type material, which would crack if bent too much.

Has anyone tried doing this? If so....any advice would be greatly apprecicated.

P.S. Has anyone ever seen a stronger stove top element than a 2600w?

http://store.appliancezone.com/servlet/-strse-55739/5303310285-8"-8in.-8/Detail

Nope. I looked a little bit to see if I could find Chriso another hotplate option, and other than the industrial hotplates of unlisted but probably jaw-dropping prices (5000-16000 watts) I pointed him at, the only other option I could find was an electric commercial stock-pot stove, which I found in a catalog (of the no-price-listed sort), but at none of the manufacturer's listed dealers (who only had gas versions). The electric version used a pair of 2600 watt elements (different shape than stovetop type).

The way most folks make a high-wattage electric keggle is to put a low-density (thus long, so less heat per inch) hot-water heater element right in the wort - easily available in the 5000 watt range. Drill a hole and stick it in.

I get 7-8 gallons to a boil in a 10 gallon commercial pot on my stovetop with a 2600 watt canning element, but if I'm starting with cold water I'm planning to steep as I go and not in a great hurry, and otherwise I'm not starting that cold (sparge, etc). Might take 45 minutes or so? You want two-thee gallons more and I doubt you'd have the good contact my very flat bottomed heavy aluminum pot has with the element.

Yeah...drilling a hole and putting in a low density element is the last thing I want to do...but will do it if there is absolutely NO other way around it. I still have a few weeks worth of patience to keep looking around though.

Ecnerwal said:

I get 7-8 gallons to a boil in a 10 gallon commercial pot on my stovetop with a 2600 watt canning element, but if I'm starting with cold water I'm planning to steep as I go and not in a great hurry, and otherwise I'm not starting that cold (sparge, etc). Might take 45 minutes or so? You want two-thee gallons more and I doubt you'd have the good contact my very flat bottomed heavy aluminum pot has with the element.

Click to expand...

How long does it take you to get the 7-8 gallons to steeping temp?

Well, at the risk of sending you out in into "biting off more than you can chew" land, but not knowing in advance how much you can chew, you might look for an oven element of a convenient shape and build a fancy ceramic-wool insulated hot box that your keggle "sits in". Or, (figure out what fits best) 3 small stove elements or two big ones, turn the keggle over, fit the elements in, and bury them in a lake of solder (obviously not the electrical contact parts, only the insulated part of the element). That would take care of thermal contact with the pot pretty well - but will involve a large investement in solder, even when you track down a source for solder by the pound bar. And you'll need high-temperature wire to make the connections. There are other types of heating elements you might be able to adapt - oil diffusion high-vacuum pumps use a 4-5 inch diameter heater that's 1200 watts or so - you could probably fit 5 of those in. Here's one maker - again, the cost may be shudderingly high: Diffusion Pump Heaters from Dalton Electric that outperform OEM Heaters.

Here are the drum heaters / hot plates I found for Chriso...
Wenesco industrial hot plates for drums & stock pots

Wouldn't you think there would be a problem with the element melting the solder?

Wow, do you get your electricity for free?

Gregredic said:

How long do you guys think it would take for an element like that to heat....say 10 gallons of 70 degree water to a boil.

Click to expand...

Temp rise/ Watts needed in time

(gallons x temp rise (F) / 372 x heat up time ) X 1000 = watts


10 X 151 = 1510
372 X 1.6 = 595.2

1510 / 595.2 = 2.53 X 1000 = 2536 watts


1510 / 595.2 = 253 X 1000 = 2536 watts needed to heat 10 gallons of water from 70 deg f to 212 (boil) in 1.6 hours

Cheers
JJ

climateboy said:

Wow, do you get your electricity for free?

Click to expand...

I do live in the south and we get power from TVA....so we pretty much have the cheapest power in the world. So not free...but a heck of a lot cheaper than propane.

Gregredic said:

Wouldn't you think there would be a problem with the element melting the solder?

Click to expand...

Not if you have water in the pot.

Jaybird said:

Temp rise/ Watts needed in time

(gallons x temp rise (F) / 372 x heat up time ) X 1000 = watts


10 X 151 = 1510
372 X 1.6 = 595.2

1510 / 595.2 = 2.53 X 1000 = 2536 watts


1510 / 595.2 = 253 X 1000 = 2536 watts needed to heat 10 gallons of water from 70 deg f to 212 (boil) in 1.6 hours

Cheers
JJ

Click to expand...

I am just trying to understand the formula...which I understand it all except for the 372. Is this just a number that will always be a constant.

climateboy said:

Wow, do you get your electricity for free?

Click to expand...

Around my place, electricity certainly is cheaper than propane. That being said, once I can go all electric brewing, I'll probably think about getting solar panels on my place... in Cali, there are several options to do this without the upfront cost.

Gregredic said:

I am just trying to understand the formula...which I understand it all except for the 372. Is this just a number that will always be a constant.

Click to expand...

Here's a good online calculator for doing thermal / watt / time calculations.

jkarp said:

Here's a good online calculator for doing thermal / watt / time calculations.

Click to expand...

I might try to contact them in order to find a stronger element. My biggest problem is the strongest element I can find is just 2600w. I'd LOVE to find one at least 3500w....4000w would be fabulous.

Greg; you get the PM I sent you last night? I hope it helped besides adding a different idea on heating.

Gregredic:

In my opinion, the advantages of the water heater element jammed in a hole in your kettle are:

1. Most efficient way to deliver electric heat to the wort or water because there is direct heat transfer from the element to the liquid. No other materials in the way.

2. Fastest response time; there is no loss of heat to any other component of the system, so the temp of the wort or water increases faster than with indirect heating methods.

3. Most controllable heat: the element immersed in liquid never gets much hotter than said liquid, and the element’s thermal mass is very low, so you can quickly control boil overs. The larger thermal mass of the system you are thinking of will reduce your ability quickly to change heat input to the liquid.

4. Relatively simple, cheap and easy to build, and lots of folks here will offer you valuable advice on how to build it. You can go welded or weldless, and drilling holes in kegs isn’t difficult.

If you use a system like you’re describing, the disadvantages are:
1. Less efficient heat transfer
2. Slower response time
3. Less control of heating or boiling
4. More complex to build, maybe needlessly complex, and you are maybe on your own in solving design and build issues.

That being said, if you want to do it this way, go for it.

BrewBeemer said:

Greg; you get the PM I sent you last night? I hope it helped besides adding a different idea on heating.

Click to expand...

I got it and it was greatly appreciated.

AiredAle said:

Gregredic:

In my opinion, the advantages of the water heater element jammed in a hole in your kettle are:

1. Most efficient way to deliver electric heat to the wort or water because there is direct heat transfer from the element to the liquid. No other materials in the way.

2. Fastest response time; there is no loss of heat to any other component of the system, so the temp of the wort or water increases faster than with indirect heating methods.

3. Most controllable heat: the element immersed in liquid never gets much hotter than said liquid, and the element’s thermal mass is very low, so you can quickly control boil overs. The larger thermal mass of the system you are thinking of will reduce your ability quickly to change heat input to the liquid.

4. Relatively simple, cheap and easy to build, and lots of folks here will offer you valuable advice on how to build it. You can go welded or weldless, and drilling holes in kegs isn’t difficult.

If you use a system like you’re describing, the disadvantages are:
1. Less efficient heat transfer
2. Slower response time
3. Less control of heating or boiling
4. More complex to build, maybe needlessly complex, and you are maybe on your own in solving design and build issues.

That being said, if you want to do it this way, go for it.

Click to expand...

I'm pretty much a beat man now. I think I am going to try to just drill 2 holes and place 2 low density water heater elements in there. Is going weldless fairly simple and usually leak free if o-rings and great care is taken? Also...does anyone have a good wiring schematic for this? I figured I will just put in 2 elements and put some sort of control like you would find for a stove eye on it. Anyone have any cool setups or ideas for making it a spiffy....yet SAFE rig?

Also...has anyone ever basically set these elements in some sort of molten metal and let them cool down in order to create more surface area...thereby reducing the risk further of scortching?

Gregredic said:

I am just trying to understand the formula...which I understand it all except for the 372. Is this just a number that will always be a constant.

Click to expand...

Yes 372 is a constant
JJ

These calculations must all be under perfect conditions not accounting for thermal heat losses thru the keggles without or even with insulation as insulation is not thermally 100%, any wind or air movement and the air temperature your brewing at. I must add to this any VD (voltage drop) at the heating element below the elements rated voltage will reduce the BTU's ratings of that element a large amount. Long or undersized cords feeding your brewing equipment will cause this. Your available breaker size in amperage will most likely be a element size limiting factor. A dry high temp element close to the curved keggle bottom I see as a possible problem vs a full liquid bottom contact of the keggle with one or two elements in glycol. A more even lower heat applied to the full bottom area of the keggle. With 15.75" keggle base diameter (example diameter) your at 194.8 sq/in surface area without adding the area gained by the curve of the keggles bottom.
Oversizing in wattage will give you a quicker temp rise with the PID controlling the SSR on shorter on time cycles is a heck of a lot better than a long waiting time with the PID / SSR on 100% of the time with a under powered by wattage system. Again available breaker size could be your limiting factor.
JMO's had to reply.

Jaybird said:

Temp rise/ Watts needed in time

(gallons x temp rise (F) / 372 x heat up time ) X 1000 = watts


10 X 151 = 1510
372 X 1.6 = 595.2

1510 / 595.2 = 2.53 X 1000 = 2536 watts


1510 / 595.2 = 253 X 1000 = 2536 watts needed to heat 10 gallons of water from 70 deg f to 212 (boil) in 1.6 hours

Cheers
JJ

Click to expand...

Jaybird; thanks for posting the math formulas.

Are you contemplating opening a BrewHouse in the S.F. bay area in the future when this economy ever straightens out?

BrewBeemer said:

Jaybird; thanks for posting the math formulas.

Are you contemplating opening a BrewHouse in the S.F. bay area in the future when this economy ever straightens out?

Click to expand...

I will have a CBC in the bay area at some point but for now I an working on the Redding Brewhouse, the Frisco Brewhouse will come later!!!
Cheers
JJ

That leaves me to visit the inlaws in Redding plus a friend that owns a house boat rental at Shasta lake and your brewery or wait until you open in the S.F. Boy do they hate it called Frisco when over there. I'll just have to wait until you open a brewhouse down here. A short ferry boat ride from Alameda then ding around the pier 39 area, add a few biers then tourist watch.
Alameda could use a brewhouse as we lost one years ago.

Would I need a 30 amp breaker for a 5500w water heater element?

5500w ÷ 240v = 22.9a; if you have a breaker rated for any less than that, it'll break the circuit.

Your at 76% of a 30 amp rated breaker add a PID that draws about nothing, your still good plus a few indicator lights. The 80% rule loading circuits to 80% not 100% of the breakers rating. You add one or two pumps with their inrush starting current plus the element energized, add a radio or a flood lamp brewing outdoors you may push your 30 amp breaker over its limit. If it's a old used breaker used as a switch many times in its life or tripped a lot it may become weaker and drop out a few to many amps lower than its original rating unless it's a rated breaker for switching which I have not seen in residential only commercial. Get where i'm going here? You don't want to be brewing and having the breaker tripping all the time this would make for a screwed brewing day. With electric heating to get faster temp rises like propane takes power in this case watts which means many amps with a panel that has the space and capacity for a breaker that can feed your brew system. Many sub panels are already loaded to the max this with thin wafer breakers to double up the circuits then you can end up dropping the sub panels feed at the main panel or worst yet tripping the main. Think about this, electric oven, dryer, AC, general plugs for TV, computers, toaster, dishwasher it has a heating element, lights on in the house then you add your brewing element load. If an older house you may only have a 100 amp main.
Heck even 60 amp fused, i've seen 30 amp main on 1894 wired house.
I would not go from 100 to 125 or 150 but straight to a 200 amp main service with all the elctrical demand in houses these days. Sorry way off topic here just a full picture for you to think about. I'll shut up now.

climateboy said:

Wow, do you get your electricity for free?

Click to expand...

Yup, just tap ahead of the meter no problem. Just don't get caught.
I knew of a house that the main living section, work shop and garage that was tapped ahead of the meter from 1924 until 1990. The 1889 house had one of the first installed electric meters back in its day.

Ecnerwal said:

Here are the drum heaters / hot plates I found for Chriso...
Wenesco industrial hot plates for drums & stock pots

Click to expand...

If anyone's curious, I got a quote on the the HP 12S34 model which will put out 5300W (shown above) and is not cheap: Around $1500 USD.

Kal

If you install the element in the kettle you will need to:

Drill a 1.25" hole through the side of the keg.
Insert the water heater element with the supplied seal.
Screw on a 1" Straight Pipe Thread nut on the inside of the keg (BargainFittings.com)
Make it FINGER tight. Any tighter and it shall leak.

Viola, it is installed.

There are a couple wiring diagrams on this board for such things.

You will need PID output to a couple SSRs to control the elements (easy to wire) You may also want to wire in a couple DPST switches as "KILL" switches on the panel that will cut all power to the elements regardless of what the PID is commanding them to do. (this has been done on several rigs as well, including mine)

Electric isnt really all that hard, but it takes a lot of thought and learning about something that you may not already know a lot about.

You will need a MIN of 30A for each 5500W element that you have cooking in there generally. Also, ULDW elements from what I have seen here on this board, will NOT scorch wort, so no need to dip them in any molten material.

I also found a clean way to pot the electrical connections on the element at the kettle so that there is no danger if there is a boil over at the kettle. (in my build thread)

I have a thread on converting to electric, specifically my BK... there may be some helpful ideas in it.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/bling-bling-electric-herms-conversion-93217/

Thanks Pol....I had posted this thread before you did your build. Your build pretty much answered ALL of my questions.

Oh, cool... didnt look at dates!