Zero IBU IPA?

[cutigers81]

A local brewery is serving what it claims is a 0 IBU IPA with all hop additions coming on the cold side. I haven't tried it yet but am very curious. Has anybody tried anything like this before?

https://woodenrobotbrewery.com/beer/mark-it-zero-v-2/

 

[Sbe2]

Yes, many people brewing NEIPAs do this. I like to FWH .25 oz of columbus, then wait until flameout to add more hops. Usually ending up with 12 oz by the time its ready to keg.

 

[triethylborane]

No IBU means no alpha acids, which can be measured by HPLC or mass spec. So I think Zero IBU is nonsense but perhaps they are just saying hey you can't perceive the bitterness. Huh, yeah I guess thats like some NEIPAs which are juicy, but not really bitter. Maybe more sour.

 

[Lefou]

Sounds like a bunch of word game foolishness to me.
A perceived bitterness from hops is still flavoring whether it's alpha or beta acid - to me, anyway. I like a minor bittering and a good hop aroma.
Is this what they're trying to get across with this method? If so, it's an IPA I might consider trying just to find out, otherwise IPA is a style you'll never find in my mug.

 

[cutigers81]

Yes, many people brewing NEIPAs do this. I like to FWH .25 oz of columbus, then wait until flameout to add more hops. Usually ending up with 12 oz by the time its ready to keg.

Hmm, I must be out of the loop. Most NEIPA recipes I've tried have at least a dash of bittering hops at the beginning of the boil. But you're right, the style definitely leans towards hop additions after flameout.

Technically, IBUs could be measured from flameout additions, so if this brewery truly has a zero IBU beer all hops would have to be added during dry hopping. I doubt that is the case. Maybe I should go get a pint and find out for myself...

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

IBUs are calculated from alpha acids that have been isomerized, so if there is no heat applied to isomerize the alpha acids then the calculation would show zero. There are a number of issues with the IBU calculations though, so in the end it is just a nice tool to have an idea of what your getting into. I think the super high and this super low value are marketing. Based on that theory it sounds like it will work too, since I think three separate people said they'd like to try it.

 

[BrunDog]

You need bitterness to offset the sweetness of the residual sugars. Otherwise it won't be balanced.

They are probably calculating 0 IBU because the calculators assign 0 IBU's to dry hops, but we know this is not true.

 

[SanPancho]

the calculators assign 0 IBU's to dry hops, but we know this is not true.

i dont recall off the top of my head but i believe this is untrue. as noted above, you need to isomerize the AA. what does happen is that there is interaction with polyphenols and other related chems that give bitterness to the beer, but not necessarily IBU as per isomerized AA. not only that, but the hop material will actually pull isomerized AA out of suspension. been a while since i read that though, so dont quote me on the details.

its kind of a silly gimick. sure the NEIPA doesnt really have bitterness as a major component, but its still there in small amounts. for balance. even whirlpool hops that go in at 170s can still give some isomerization.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Timely article to come across lately. I personally find it misleading as there will always be SOME isomerization taking place. Whatevs; taking it as something different: seems fun and lighthearted. However, I won't be clamoring to drop boku coin on the hops required to brew something like this.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/homebrewing-zero-ibu-ipa/

 

[BrunDog]

i dont recall off the top of my head but i believe this is untrue. as noted above, you need to isomerize the AA. what does happen is that there is interaction with polyphenols and other related chems that give bitterness to the beer, but not necessarily IBU as per isomerized AA. not only that, but the hop material will actually pull isomerized AA out of suspension. been a while since i read that though, so dont quote me on the details.

its kind of a silly gimick. sure the NEIPA doesnt really have bitterness as a major component, but its still there in small amounts. for balance. even whirlpool hops that go in at 170s can still give some isomerization.

Not sure what part you are saying is incorrect - but I can tell you BeerSmith assigns 0 IBU's to dry hops.

 

[SanPancho]

Not sure what part you are saying is incorrect - but I can tell you BeerSmith assigns 0 IBU's to dry hops.

that's not the point. IBUs in calculators refers to isomerized AA. as i stated above, theres no isomerization taking place at dry hop temps. but- you do get interactions with polyphenols which can create perception of bitterness. bitter, but not technically from IBUs aka isomerized AA.

however, just to add another source of confusion, there was another paper that stated that certain yeast interactions were found to cause some level of isomerization. not via heat, obviously, but through chemical/enyzmatic conversion. IIRC they made a no kettle hop beer and added only dry hops, and managed to find isomerized AA in small amounts.

the chemistry is beyond me, so dont ask. thats about the gist of it.

 

[BrunDog]

I'm down with the academic discussion but I am still not sure why you are contesting me. BeerSmith and other calculators assign 0 IBU to dry hops. This is not subject to interpretation - it is fact. I hear you on bitterness from dry hops and agree - in fact I said "but we know this is not true" but my post was in response to the OP noting a brewery claiming 0 IBU - which can easily be claimed if they take the value from a calculator.

 

[triethylborane]

I'm down with the academic discussion but I am still not sure why you are contesting me. BeerSmith and other calculators assign 0 IBU to dry hops. This is not subject to interpretation - it is fact. I hear you on bitterness from dry hops and agree - in fact I said "but we know this is not true" but my post was in response to the OP noting a brewery claiming 0 IBU - which can easily be claimed if they take the value from a calculator.

Would be interesting to run a "zero IBU" beer through mass spec or HPLC and see if it is truly a zero IBU. My guess is no, but I see your argument.

 

[dmtaylor]

IBUs are just a number, a measurement of absorbance of light through a sample. What they signify is subject to interpretation, and probably to a greater extent, gross MIS-interpretation.

Taste is what really matters. My guess is that these so-called zero IBU beers taste like bitter liquid hop pellets just like any other NEIPA.

Ever suck on a hop pellet or eat a hop cone? It too has zero IBUs, but it sure tastes BITTER AS HELL!!! Yeah, I've eaten a hop cone once on a dare. I won't be doing that again. It was very very chewy, besides the obvious flavor impacts.

 

[JordanKnudson]

that's not the point. IBUs in calculators refers to isomerized AA. as i stated above, theres no isomerization taking place at dry hop temps. but- you do get interactions with polyphenols which can create perception of bitterness. bitter, but not technically from IBUs aka isomerized AA.

I'm down with the academic discussion but I am still not sure why you are contesting me. BeerSmith and other calculators assign 0 IBU to dry hops. This is not subject to interpretation - it is fact. I hear you on bitterness from dry hops and agree - in fact I said "but we know this is not true" but my post was in response to the OP noting a brewery claiming 0 IBU - which can easily be claimed if they take the value from a calculator.

Yeah, you guys are saying the same thing. SanPancho, I think you might have just misunderstood the post that kicked off this back-and-forth. You're both saying that the calculators, which predict IBUs based on isomerized alpha acids, will show zero, but that in fact there will be bitterness in other forms that is indeed present and perceptible.

 

[SanPancho]

Exactly. It's academic, but still a point to be made. Educational discussion always starts with definitions. Make sure we are all talking about same thing.

Especially if the study about yeast isomerizing AAs is correct. imagine trying to figure out which yeasts isomerize the most, or at all, versus hop variety, hop amount, alcohol percentage/gravity when hops added, etc etc.

 

[passedpawn]

The best beer I've ever had (maybe the best hoppy beer) was called Fresh Hop Pale Ale (Great Divide). Imma tell ya, it was a blast in the face of hop aroma. But it wasn't bitter at all, not SNPA bitter, nothing. It was not sweet either. Just wonderful hop aromatics all over the place. I never saw it again, so it might have been a seasonal or one-off beer.

Anyway, obviously it wasn't 0 IBU because it wasn't sweet. But I understand the idea and the marketing: heavy on the aroma and flavor, light on the bitterness. Not sure how to get there. I've done some crazy dry-hopping and not replicated that beer. My brother in Calif agitates his beers while dry-hopping, and his beers are excellent. Maybe whole or wet hops are better. Not sure. It's my white whale.

[edit] this was it... https://www.ratebeer.com/beer/great-divide-fresh-hop-pale-ale/28450/

 

[swampbrewcrew]

IBUs are just a number, a measurement of absorbance of light through a sample. What they signify is subject to interpretation, and probably to a greater extent, gross MIS-interpretation.

Taste is what really matters. My guess is that these so-called zero IBU beers taste like bitter liquid hop pellets just like any other NEIPA.

Ever suck on a hop pellet or eat a hop cone? It too has zero IBUs, but it sure tastes BITTER AS HELL!!! Yeah, I've eaten a hop cone once on a dare. I won't be doing that again. It was very very chewy, besides the obvious flavor impacts.

Exactly! A beer may calculate and even test out to be zero IBU, but taste is what matters and taste is dependent on the individual. You load up on flavor/aroma additions to taste the hops. The hops should be a mix of bitterness and their individual profiles. You wind up tasting what you perceive and smell.