American Amber Ale Zach & Jack's African Amber

[troglodytes]

Rechecked my notes. Last time I was at 76%. Mashed at 157. I should check my thermometer but I'm pretty sure it is calibrated.

Awesome to know. Your one of a couple people who have stated high attenuation that Wyeast states on their website for that beer. I'm going to follow the recipe's mash temps and see where it ends up. Worst comes to worst I'll be at 1.017-1.018.

 

[troglodytes]

Quick followup here. I brewed drightr8's version of this recipe. I got an OG of 1.055 and pitched a nice healthy starer of WY1968. I saw no krausen formation, no sediment on the speidel wall (so I didn't miss it in the middle of the night or anything). My fermentation chamber was set to 64F so I thought it may be a little low and started ramping slowly toward 67F over the past day. Still no activity so I decided to take a hydrometer reading today (2.5 days post pitch). Its already down to 1.015!. I started the cold crashing process promptly to see if I can lock in that gravity and keep a decent body.

Now here's two issues. One, although the hydrometer sample tasted great, this yeast has had no time to clean up after itself and wont be given the change if I'm already cold crashing. Two, I bottle, and now have no clue how much priming sugar to add as I don't know how much more fermentability is remaining. I'd hate to have a second fermentation in the bottle and with priming sugar end up with an over carbed beer.

Any suggestions on these two issues (besides get a kegging setup)??

 

[Bitchin]

Would have been best to let it ferm out naturally but yeah, kegs.

 

[troglodytes]

Would have been best to let it ferm out naturally but yeah, kegs.

Perhaps I take a small sample and do a FFT test to see what the expected FG will be. Then calculate that when deciding how much additional priming sugar is needed.

I was thinking an estimation could be ok here because I'm using WY1968. I was reading others experience with this yeast that the average attenuation is 74%; and see that Wyeast says the max attenuation is 71%. I'm currently at 72%, so if I assume I end up getting 74% that means there is 1 more point for it to drop. Using Kai's krausening calc I see that a 1 pt drop in bottle plus 2.9 oz of sugar gets me to 2.3 vols. If worst comes to worst and I end up getting 76% attenuation (unlikely with this yeast and mash temp) then at worst I'm carbed to 2.9 vols which is overcarbed certainly for the style, but not a bottle bomb. Fingers crossed.

I feel silly for having done this cold crash so soon, but I was completely taken off guard by how fast this got to my expected FG, and based on what I had read in this thread I wanted to be left with the body targeted. Oh well, lets see how this goes. Either way, this will officially be the fasted turn around I've ever had on a beer.

 

[Bitchin]

Perhaps I take a small sample and do a FFT test to see what the expected FG will be. Then calculate that when deciding how much additional priming sugar is needed.

I was thinking an estimation could be ok here because I'm using WY1968. I was reading others experience with this yeast that the average attenuation is 74%; and see that Wyeast says the max attenuation is 71%. I'm currently at 72%, so if I assume I end up getting 74% that means there is 1 more point for it to drop. Using Kai's krausening calc I see that a 1 pt drop in bottle plus 2.9 oz of sugar gets me to 2.3 vols. If worst comes to worst and I end up getting 76% attenuation (unlikely with this yeast and mash temp) then at worst I'm carbed to 2.9 vols which is overcarbed certainly for the style, but not a bottle bomb. Fingers crossed.

I feel silly for having done this cold crash so soon, but I was completely taken off guard by how fast this got to my expected FG, and based on what I had read in this thread I wanted to be left with the body targeted. Oh well, lets see how this goes. Either way, this will officially be the fasted turn around I've ever had on a beer.

Go for it and let us know how the beer turns out. Cheers!

 

[brewcat]

Perhaps I take a small sample and do a FFT test to see what the expected FG will be. Then calculate that when deciding how much additional priming sugar is needed.

I was thinking an estimation could be ok here because I'm using WY1968. I was reading others experience with this yeast that the average attenuation is 74%; and see that Wyeast says the max attenuation is 71%. I'm currently at 72%, so if I assume I end up getting 74% that means there is 1 more point for it to drop. Using Kai's krausening calc I see that a 1 pt drop in bottle plus 2.9 oz of sugar gets me to 2.3 vols. If worst comes to worst and I end up getting 76% attenuation (unlikely with this yeast and mash temp) then at worst I'm carbed to 2.9 vols which is overcarbed certainly for the style, but not a bottle bomb. Fingers crossed.

I feel silly for having done this cold crash so soon, but I was completely taken off guard by how fast this got to my expected FG, and based on what I had read in this thread I wanted to be left with the body targeted. Oh well, lets see how this goes. Either way, this will officially be the fasted turn around I've ever had on a beer.

The biggest concern will be diacetyl. I wouldn't be so concerned with the FG. Finishing gravity will be based on the wort composition and yeast.

 

[brewcat]

So just looking on Mac & Jack's website. Listing the hops for African Amber as Cascade and Nugget. Their distributor site lists the IBU at 30.

Take that for what it is worth.

Next time I'm thinking I'll add some carapils and maybe some 60L. And I guess I might bitter with Nugget and possibly use a little at 5 minutes.

 

[troglodytes]

The biggest concern will be diacetyl. I wouldn't be so concerned with the FG. Finishing gravity will be based on the wort composition and yeast.

I was pleasantly surprised by the lack of diacetyl taste in the hydrometer sample I pulled, so it just may turn out fine. Time will tell. I feel like an idiot for having done this. After brewing for so many years, I should know better, but if it turns out great than maybe I should start experimenting with really fast turnaround beers.

 

[Bitchin]

So just looking on Mac & Jack's website. Listing the hops for African Amber as Cascade and Nugget. Their distributor site lists the IBU at 30.

Take that for what it is worth.

Next time I'm thinking I'll add some carapils and maybe some 60L. And I guess I might bitter with Nugget and possibly use a little at 5 minutes.

I had to look for myself since the website previously didn't say anything about these details. Mac & Jack's is teasing us with a little cleavage. Hehehehehe. Let us know it turns out!

 

[Bowen1911]

I took inspiration from this thread to brew this last weekend:

8.5 lbs 2 row
1 lb munich 10L
1 lb Crystal 120L
.5 lb Crystal 10L

Mash at 155 for 60 minutes

Hops (all pellet)
.25 oz Summit 60 min
.5 oz Cascade 20 min
1.5 oz Cascade 5 min

1 oz dryhop for 4-5 days Cascade after 10 days fermentation. Haven't decided yet.

Wyeast 1028 London Ale yeast

OG 1.052
FG expected 1.014-1.015


It looks good!

 

[Bitchin]

I took inspiration from this thread to brew this last weekend:

8.5 lbs 2 row
1 lb munich 10L
1 lb Crystal 120L
.5 lb Crystal 10L

Mash at 155 for 60 minutes

Hops (all pellet)
.25 oz Summit 60 min
.5 oz Cascade 20 min
1.5 oz Cascade 5 min

1 oz dryhop for 4-5 days Cascade after 10 days fermentation. Haven't decided yet.

Wyeast 1028 London Ale yeast

OG 1.052
FG expected 1.014-1.015


It looks good!

Let us know how it turns out. I'm curious about the rationale behind your recipe strategy.

Cheers!

 

[Bitchin]

Exciting news! I spent some time this past weekend with a guy who was formerly a brewer for Mac & Jack's. Since he no longer works there he was more than willing to share information about M & J's. Here are some of the things I learned:

OG = 1.054
Grainbill: Pale malt, Munich, Crystal 120, and Wheat (hence the cloudiness)
Hops: Bittering - Cascade 60 mins, Aroma - Mt Hood (Last 5 Mins), Dry - Cascade

They also add something called Allfloc. Not too sure what this is or exactly what it does.

He couldn't tell me anything specific about their yeast other than it is proprietary and they harvest from their kegs to keep it going. He agreed with what I have always thought - the yeast is probably the most important ingredient. The nice thing is they don't filter so it is fairly easy to harvest yeast from a keg or growler (if you're in the Great Northwest).

Since my last batch was fairly close I can't wait to tweek my recipe and try again.

Cheers,

Dwight

I meant a to comment on this before. If they attempt to stop fermentation at 1.016, and the OG is 1.054, that results in a 5% beer. If it's truly 5.8% ABV as M&J's says, it needs a 1.060 OG. Maybe the recipe has evolved since this guy worked there?

Dwight, do you still have a connection with this guy? I wonder what mash temp they use.

 

[gambo]

Update: I still think the recipe is right there now that everything has been dialed in... BUT there were two problems in the last brew that warrant sharing.

1. I goofed and mashed at 156F instead of 154F.
2. I usually ferment in a temp-controlled fridge but ran out of space. I didn't have time to compensate so I just let 'er rip, not realizing it'd get so hot. The coolest place in the house made for a 75F peak temp during the ferment. (average temp during active fermentation was about 72F).

Well, the results were fantastic in spite of a sloppy brew! The body was a little fuller as a result of the higher mash temp. The Safale S-04 yeast didn't suffer at the high temps. In fact, it benefited. The esters were complimentary in every regard and I thought better mimicked the M&J's house yeast strain. The TG was still 1.016, so possibly better yeast health, possibly the temp, or a combinations of factors.

Conclusion:
For future batches, I'm going to raise my mash temp to 156F. I'll still let the fermentation start at 68F but will set the fridge to 72F, letting it rise naturally and will continue using S-04. Additionally, carbing to 2.3 vols CO2 seems to be the sweet spot for this beer.

Hi, I'm curious, has anyone converted this latest recipe for 5 Gal Dry Extract? Interested in trying this out.

Thanks.

 

[Bitchin]

Hi, I'm curious, has anyone converted this latest recipe for 5 Gal Dry Extract? Interested in trying this out.

Thanks.

Beersmith will do this for you with a mouse-click, not to mention dozens of other features a brewer can use over and over again. If you don't have Beersmith, get it, like yesterday. It's the best $20 you'll spend all year. You can also upgrade to add the mobile version for an extra few bux.

 

[gambo]

Thanks, I have it, will do.

 

[Bowen1911]

Still haven't tapped my keg, but I did have enough left over in the fermentor to fill two bottles. I also found Mac & Jacks on tap locally, so I got a growler to compare and popped a bottle.

M&J on left, mine on right.

Color looks about spot on. Mine is hazier, but some gelatin, a longer cold crash, or more time in the keg/bottle should drop some of the haze out.

Aroma is dead on to my novice smell receptors. Neither my wife nor I could tell which was which based on a blind whiff test.

Taste is extremely close. Bitterness and alcohol flavor was indiscernible. Nutty/malty flavor and caramel/crystal flavor is what my palate would call identical. The hops are where the two diverge, but not by much. My recipe had a cascade hops flavor that started late and lasted, whereas the M&J hops flavor seemed to start late and taper off quickly. Either dropping my 1.5 oz addition to 1 oz, or a longer aging time would probably make it more similar in this regard.

All in all, it's a great recipe. Good job to those that did the heavy lifting for this recipe.

 

[Bitchin]

Still haven't tapped my keg, but I did have enough left over in the fermentor to fill two bottles. I also found Mac & Jacks on tap locally, so I got a growler to compare and popped a bottle.

M&J on left, mine on right.

Color looks about spot on. Mine is hazier, but some gelatin, a longer cold crash, or more time in the keg/bottle should drop some of the haze out.

Aroma is dead on to my novice smell receptors. Neither my wife nor I could tell which was which based on a blind whiff test.

Taste is extremely close. Bitterness and alcohol flavor was indiscernible. Nutty/malty flavor and caramel/crystal flavor is what my palate would call identical. The hops are where the two diverge, but not by much. My recipe had a cascade hops flavor that started late and lasted, whereas the M&J hops flavor seemed to start late and taper off quickly. Either dropping my 1.5 oz addition to 1 oz, or a longer aging time would probably make it more similar in this regard.

All in all, it's a great recipe. Good job to those that did the heavy lifting for this recipe.

Your cloudiness is likely just suspended yeast which will settle out. You're a little darker than the original and it will darken some more as the yeast drops. No biggie if your flavors are there as you note.

So much of the resulting beer depends on the individual brewer's equipment, process, ingredients, and even the shape of the fermenter. So it stands to reason that a clone brewer will not be able to clone a beer by simply repeating a recipe to a T because a different system will produce different results even with the exact same recipe. Therefore a clone brewer will need to tweak the recipe in accordance with his or her system and even our own interpretations of M&J's will vary. But we do know that no amount of orange peel will make a M&J's African Amber. ;0)

You made some changes by removing the wheat and adding some extra light crystal which also resulted in a lower OG. You also omitted the Mt Hood and may have dry hopped twice. So you steered back toward some of the older recipes. Still curious about that strategy.

Your hops were bolder because you added more Cascade. Using both Cascade and Mt Hood while dry hopping only at .75-1 oz per 5 gallons and going with 30-35 ibu seems to land you right in that sweet spot - at least at some of the bigger OG's in the 1.060 range.

I intentionally worked my OG upward to get the density to match M&J's. Even with higher mash temps and lower attenuating yeasts, I couldn't match the maltiness of this beer until I hit 1.060. It's a fatter beer than it seems. Dwightr8 went 1.062 and added some Cpils and mashes a tad cooler. There is that dependent relationship between wort fermentability (temp/gravity) and yeast attenuation such that there are a number of ways at arriving at the same TG but each combination will still yield varying results.

I saw your recipe but what were your measured specs for OG, and TG and IBU? The photo looks to be about 13 but may be 14'ish SRM with less haze. Did you dry hop twice? Also curious about your fermentation temp.

Cheers!

 

[Bowen1911]

I don’t know where you got the double dry hopping idea. Just one ounce for the last few days of fermentation. Fermentation temp was 67-68. I’m without a chamber at the moment, so I can only go off my brew buckets thermometer in the morning and evening, and it was constant.

My “strategy” is just make a brew in brewers friend and go with it. I pulled malt numbers loosely from this thread, and hop numbers from my ass. I don’t have nugget, but I have 9 or so pounds of other various pellets, so I use what I’ve got. I didnt take any gravity readings for this beer out of laziness, but I am almost always 72-75% efficiency. Easy to get theoretical numbers from that. Water is Redmond Oregon tap water.

I don’t have good lighting anywhere in my house except my reloading bench. My wife only likes ****** soft lit everything, so I take my photos with a grain of salt.

 

[VipperOfVipp]

I don’t know where you got the double dry hopping idea. Just one ounce for the last few days of fermentation. Fermentation temp was 67-68. I’m without a chamber at the moment, so I can only go off my brew buckets thermometer in the morning and evening, and it was constant.

My “strategy” is just make a brew in brewers friend and go with it. I pulled malt numbers loosely from this thread, and hop numbers from my ass. I don’t have nugget, but I have 9 or so pounds of other various pellets, so I use what I’ve got. I didnt take any gravity readings for this beer out of laziness, but I am almost always 72-75% efficiency. Easy to get theoretical numbers from that. Water is Redmond Oregon tap water.

I don’t have good lighting anywhere in my house except my reloading bench. My wife only likes poopyty soft lit everything, so I take my photos with a grain of salt.

Does Mac and Jack still add the “bung” with hops attached to the finished kegs? I remember when I was up there a few years ago it was a proud part of their process as they had to have the special kegs to do it.

If so, it this considered a second cold dry hop?

 

[Bitchin]

Does Mac and Jack still add the “bung” with hops attached to the finished kegs? I remember when I was up there a few years ago it was a proud part of their process as they had to have the special kegs to do it.

If so, it this considered a second cold dry hop?

Unsure. I misread Bowen's original hopping comments. I don't think the original is double dry hopped. In such a subtly dry hopped beer, their dry hops are likely only added in the keg (if they still do it this way). While the home brewer can do this, the same effect could be achieved in the late primary or in a secondary if you use one.

Hopping in the keg can leech tannins and unwanted flavors over time in larger hopping quantities but I have hopped the keg in earlier versions without troubles in this beer.

 

[VipperOfVipp]

Unsure. I misread Bowen's original hopping comments. I don't think the original is double dry hopped. In such a subtly dry hopped beer, their dry hops are likely only added in the keg (if they still do it this way). While the home brewer can do this, the same effect could be achieved in the late primary or in a secondary if you use one.

Hopping in the keg can leech tannins and unwanted flavors over time in larger hopping quantities but I have hopped the keg in earlier versions without troubles in this beer.

That makes sense. It was 2008 when I was there. I wasn’t a homebrewer at the time, but it couldn’t have been more than 2-4oz for the whole 15gal keg. They talked about letting it mature for 2 weeks before taping but that the flavor of the beer would change as time went on. Curious as to what they do now, 10 years later.

 

[Bitchin]

That makes sense. It was 2008 when I was there. I wasn’t a homebrewer at the time, but it couldn’t have been more than 2-4oz for the whole 15gal keg. They talked about letting it mature for 2 weeks before taping but that the flavor of the beer would change as time went on. Curious as to what they do now, 10 years later.

I find that this beer peaks at about 4 weeks from brew day. Dry hops go into the primary warm on day 5, cold crash on day 10 and the primary is racked to a keg on Day 12. I carbonate and let it sit cold for a couple weeks before tapping.

 

[troglodytes]

So after my mistake of cold crashing waaaay to soon in order to halt fermentation (and subsequently overcarbing the bottles once because the yeast had more work to do), mine is finally in a good place. Just had to bleed off a little carbonation in each bottle.

This is a really interesting beer. First off it is ridiculously easy drinking, but I've found that between the ESB yeast, the nice dry hop and the maltiness of the grain bill you get three different flavors, and they all hit at different times. I taste a slight hoppy citrus flavor right off the bat, which then fades into a little bit of bread (sourdoughy), and then a pleasant yeasty aftertaste. These flavors have yet to "meld" if you will. I'm far past 4 weeks from bottling and would have though some sort of merging of flavors would have occurred at this point, or maybe I was expecting something different than my result (as I have never tasted the original).

Is my experience the norm or should I wait on this until the flavors come together a bit more?

 

[Bitchin]

So after my mistake of cold crashing waaaay to soon in order to halt fermentation (and subsequently overcarbing the bottles once because the yeast had more work to do), mine is finally in a good place. Just had to bleed off a little carbonation in each bottle.

This is a really interesting beer. First off it is ridiculously easy drinking, but I've found that between the ESB yeast, the nice dry hop and the maltiness of the grain bill you get three different flavors, and they all hit at different times. I taste a slight hoppy citrus flavor right off the bat, which then fades into a little bit of bread (sourdoughy), and then a pleasant yeasty aftertaste. These flavors have yet to "meld" if you will. I'm far past 4 weeks from bottling and would have though some sort of merging of flavors would have occurred at this point, or maybe I was expecting something different than my result (as I have never tasted the original).

Is my experience the norm or should I wait on this until the flavors come together a bit more?

Well then, you just have try the original. Hehehehe. The hops should be the first thing you notice but not overpowering hop with fruity esters. Just a modest floral/citrusy thing you get when the cascade and mt hood come together. The malt plays a role here but in a secondary manner. Next the rich maltiness starts to come through but again, not overpoweringly so. Just round, fat and refreshing. There is a hop earthiness in the flavor which also tends to taste tobacco'ish when it warms up a little. Then everything kinda blends together and fades before you take the next sip. It's a real drinker.

 

[troglodytes]

Well then, you just have try the original. Hehehehe. The hops should be the first thing you notice but not overpowering hop with fruity esters. Just a modest floral/citrusy thing you get when the cascade and mt hood come together. The malt plays a role here but in a secondary manner. Next the rich maltiness starts to come through but again, not overpoweringly so. Just round, fat and refreshing. There is a hop earthiness in the flavor which also tends to taste tobacco'ish when it warms up a little. Then everything kinda blends together and fades before you take the next sip. It's a real drinker.

Your descriptions sounds really close to my experience. I'm liking what I have, mine's just a little thin which probably means my rich maltiness is reduced and replaced with a little too much yeast flavor. At the rate I'm drinking these bottles, this batch won't be long for this world. I'm going to do this again and increase my mash temp and pitch at .5 million cells per mL per degree instead of 1 million cells just to get that final gravity to be at 1.016 instead of 1.012 (which judging by my carb level is where I think I ended up).

 

[Bowen1911]

I finally tapped my keg just over 6 weeks from brew day. The hop boldness is down some from the two bottle conditioned beers. Don't get me wrong, I love hops, but the flavor balanced out much nicer this way. Still get a hit of cascade hops, but the malt shines through a little more.

If I brew this again, I will split the crystal malts equally between 120 and 60 to try a different profile.

 

[Bitchin]

I finally tapped my keg just over 6 weeks from brew day. The hop boldness is down some from the two bottle conditioned beers. Don't get me wrong, I love hops, but the flavor balanced out much nicer this way. Still get a hit of cascade hops, but the malt shines through a little more.

If I brew this again, I will split the crystal malts equally between 120 and 60 to try a different profile.

Dwightr8 reports using 3/4 lb C120 with good results. His recipe is great. The original is reported to be all C120 but I've not been able to balance the flavor and color using all C120 myself without reducing below 3/4 lb. I found it a tad too abrasive. We understand the crystal addition to be heavy in this beer so backing off too far on the C120 didn't seem to be the right approach. All C80 was too light and lacked character. A 50:50 blend with C80 hits the mark for me and provides that smooth but expressive dark crystal character. This may relate to process or even malt suppliers.

 

[Bitchin]

There are infinite combinations of malts that will arrive you at a particular SRM but very few combinations that will also meet the target flavor profile. 3 beers with the same SRM can have 3 different hues and 3 different flavors, so the SRM scale is really quite sterile by nature. It stands to reason that there is in fact more than one way to skin the cat... in this case M&J's African Amber. But this becomes a matter of damn close, close enough, and "other". The same applies to hops and other ingredients.

The most effective approach when cloning is always to start with the same ingredients and scaled quantities as the brewery uses (when known) and to compensate for the differences in each home brewer's equipment (which has a definite impact), emulating the processes as closely as possible.

The obvious fermentation temp, mash temp, boil times etc are usually talked about but the little things like mash pH, pitching rates, water composition, or even the shape of the fermenter aren't. This is where the skill of the home brewer comes into play. Making those subtle (and not so subtle) tweaks to come closer to the clone you are attempting on your own system.

I'm not sure that a beer can be 100% cloned because even the same brewery's batches vary due to seasonal variations in ingredients, and even replacing a key piece of their equipment. But I do believe that you can come damn close to the point where only an experienced palate can tell the difference.

This clone threads contains a lot of data recon and trial and error which has been honed as the clone recipe gets dialed in. It is possible that the actual M&J's recipe has evolved over time. Everyone has done a great job here. Although there are differences in yeast and we don't know anything about water treatment, I still think that this recipe is pretty much there. Here is what the more successful renditions tend to look like.

OG 1.058-1.060
TG 1.016
SRM 12-13
ABV 5.8%
30-35 IBU

~70% Base Malt
~10% Light Munich
~10% Wheat Malt
6-7% C120 (or a blend of C120/C80)

~1.5 oz Cascade 60 min
1 oz Mt Hood 5-10 min
~1 oz Cascade dry hop

Mash 155-156F
60 Min boil
English Yeast, culture some M&J's if you can but WY1968 also good

Fermentation temp varies with yeast but higher temps ~72F with SO4 work well. Age for 3 weeks cold.

2.3-2.5 vols CO2

 

[Bitchin]

I decided to look at the water in the Redmond, WA area. There were 3 sources in the analysis sheets provided to me - Well #5, Tolt Filtration Plant, and Tolt Distribution. Keep in mind that we don't know what Mac & Jack's does with their brewing water but it's likely beefed up to better suit the 12-13 SRM African Amber. I have included the ions, noting where estimations needed to be made given that the water analysis did not provide 4 data points. I then created a sample water profile that would provide a balanced beer in the suitable color range based upon residual alkalinity. Does anyone have any thoughts on the appropriate water profile? Maybe they just carbon filter from the city supply?

 

[NarrowsBrewCo]

Keeping this thread alive. I happened to notice on Mac & Jack's website, which really didn't seem to have too much on it back in the day but it looks like they've re-vamped. For this brew they list Cascade and Nugget hops, anyone tried using Nugget as the bittering over Centennial?


https://www.macandjacks.com/africanamber/