you know what really grinds my gears

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
W

wayloncash

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
16
Reaction score
3
Location
oklahoma
I came to an epiphany while talking to a salesman/home brewer at a local beer shop. Am I the only one fed up talking to these so called home brewers who don't understand classical beer styles, don't understand balance, don't understand proper fermentation methods...I mean I'm sorry don't act all high and mighty cause you say you brewed a 12% raspberry porter aged in whiskey barrels, with no real description of balance and actual representation of the classical style Porter! Then tell me you like layers of flavor and complexity. Guess what, your kitchen sink beer is crap. Any novice can throw a bunch of grain, yeast and fruit in a barrel and come up with something resembling a beer. Guess what all that **** is just masking your brewing techniques imperfections. Don't get me wrong I like to try unique and over the top brews that push the limits as much as the next guy. But I am sick and tired of these self proclaimed "beer geeks" who think they are master brewers because they serve u something strong and muddy! Give me a well balanced German lager or ale and I'll guarantee you behind that beer sits a real brewer!
 
I agree! I'm pretty much burned out on those over the top beers and am concentrating on more balanced lagers.
 
Absolutely. I'll recommend that new brewers start with something like an IPA because it's so easy to mask your failures behind all of the hops, but if you've been brewing for a while and you can't make a great SMaSH blonde ale then you really haven't learned the process. Just ask the guy how he does in competition....
 
There may be as many approaches to and perspectives on homebrew as there are people doing it. True, there is a craze in HBing that demands testing/tinkering with the time-tested limits of every available variable in brewing in an attempt to come up with something that can be swallowed/tolerated. I'm a little bothered myself when I hear the talk over the "latest" and "best" in a particular style, flavor, ABV that the general public considers the next new thing. We would all do well to keep in mind that almost without exception, every "take-off" beer out there can trace its roots back down the family tree to ales and lagers. I spent 15 months in Germany, sampling local beers. Some even came through an underground pipe directly from the nearby brewery to the gasthaus! Everywhere I went, nothing fancy or weird. Nobody bragging about the latest style, flavor, ABV. Just plain, simple, enjoyable beer borne out of a desire for that and only that.
 
Something I learned when learning to play a musical instrument was that you need to know the rules if you want to break the rules. There are a lot of parallels between the creativity of playing music and brewing. I'm just starting out in the brewing hobby and I won't be going far off of an established recipe for a while. Once I learn what the effects the ingredients have on my beer along with the infinite other variables, maybe then I'll try and put my own creative spin on a recipe or style.
 
A lot of folks are just products of the craft beer craze. They see something on the shelf and want to take it a step further without having brewed the basic style of the beer first. Just like with anything you'll have the band-wagoners who just want to say what they did, where they went, who they want to win the big game,-- whatever. These folks will jump ship when they get bored or the next big fad sucks them in. Then we'll buy all their gear for cheap on craigslist... All we can do is keep on brewing what we like and sharing what real beer tastes like. Or say screw it and keep the good stuff for ourselves :tank:

What grinds my gears are the people who drink a lot of commercial beer and think they know a lot about beer. "Beer is my hobby." No... drinking beer is not a hobby. Making beer is a hobby. Oh well... DWRHAHB.
 
wayloncash said:
I came to an epiphany while talking to a salesman/home brewer at a local beer shop. Am I the only one fed up talking to these so called home brewers who don't understand classical beer styles, don't understand balance, don't understand proper fermentation methods...I mean I'm sorry don't act all high and mighty cause you say you brewed a 12% raspberry porter aged in whiskey barrels, with no real description of balance and actual representation of the classical style Porter! Then tell me you like layers of flavor and complexity. Guess what, your kitchen sink beer is crap. Any novice can throw a bunch of grain, yeast and fruit in a barrel and come up with something resembling a beer. Guess what all that **** is just masking your brewing techniques imperfections. Don't get me wrong I like to try unique and over the top brews that push the limits as much as the next guy. But I am sick and tired of these self proclaimed "beer geeks" who think they are master brewers because they serve u something strong and muddy! Give me a well balanced German lager or ale and I'll guarantee you behind that beer sits a real brewer!
Click to expand...

You know what really grinds MY gears? Arrogant purists who believe if you're making anything more interesting than a classic German lager you're making "kitchen sink beer". I didn't see anything in your post that indicates the person with the 12% barrel aged raspberry porter was an inexperienced brewer or that their beer was sub-par. Is it a requirement to ONLY brew classic styles to be considered an expert?

After all, when it comes down to it, don't we all homebrew so that we can make something we would like drinking? And for a great deal of us, that means being creative and making something you can't just go pick up at the bottleshop. I personally never brew or cook anything the classic way. If I want that, I'll go buy it, because chances are there's someone out there who has made it better than I could. I brew because I want to make beer for ME. I aim to come up with something unique that I can call my own. When someone tells me they just made a killer Oktoberfest, I say cool, and would love to try it, but I am no way impressed by the fact that "ZOMG this guy brewed a beer that has been done millions of times over hundreds of years!!" It may be great beer, sure. But it takes no creativity.

I would actually love to try a 12% barrel aged raspberry porter. I may just start planning that. Thanks for the idea!
 
It maybe none of my business....but I feel it is important to push the edge every now and again. Sure I love the classic styles, I love to brew them, I love to drink them, and feel a measure of historical affinity with the brewers of a bygone era, who designed them. That being said whats wrong with people, just pushing the boundaries, and experimenting with flavors. Frankly sometimes I embrace mad scientist:D aspect that brewing affords. I love trodding ground that maybe no other brewer has tried before.

Also please don't fall into the trap of thinking that there is no one cleverer than yourself. Arrogance has no place here.:mug:
 
danath34 said:
You know what really grinds MY gears? Arrogant purists who believe if you're making anything more interesting than a classic German lager you're making "kitchen sink beer". I didn't see anything in your post that indicates the person with the 12% barrel aged raspberry porter was an inexperienced brewer or that their beer was sub-par. Is it a requirement to ONLY brew classic styles to be considered an expert?

After all, when it comes down to it, don't we all homebrew so that we can make something we would like drinking? And for a great deal of us, that means being creative and making something you can't just go pick up at the bottleshop. I personally never brew or cook anything the classic way. If I want that, I'll go buy it, because chances are there's someone out there who has made it better than I could. I brew because I want to make beer for ME. I aim to come up with something unique that I can call my own. When someone tells me they just made a killer Oktoberfest, I say cool, and would love to try it, but I am no way impressed by the fact that "ZOMG this guy brewed a beer that has been done millions of times over hundreds of years!!" It may be great beer, sure. But it takes no creativity.

I would actually love to try a 12% barrel aged raspberry porter. I may just start planning that. Thanks for the idea!
Click to expand...

http://tinyurl.com/owutz5g
 
Water, grain, hops and yeast...after all these years I'm still trying to make traditional beers. But that's me...we all brew for the love of the process and that first taste of sweet godly nectar,...whether it be a simple steam beer or a cherry cream cappuccino stout (I may have just vomited in my mouth a little after typing that....). Live, brew, share, drink and be merry people!


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
Just as tiring as the adjunct addicts who go overboard are the staunch traditionalists who insist everything that came after German lagers should be immediately discounted and discredited. Your opinion is just that: an opinion. Your tastes are your tastes. Brew and drink what you like, but don't expect everyone else to conform to your tastes.
 
Good responses....so agree and disagree. Its not being a purist or pushing the envelope with beer or styles that bothers me. It is more of the hipster beer snob attitude of some who jump to the extremes prior to developing solid brewing technique then attempt to hold themselves above everyone else. Once again, a brewer who can produce a balanced, clean beer with all the right subtlety can also produce a big wild beer, though Im not sure if the opposite would be true without proper fundamentals. It comes down to recognizing and appreciating what it takes to achieve a specific flavor profile, big or small.
 
German ales and lagers are tasty, sure, but as a brewer I don't just want to brew german ales and lagers. Sometimes I brew a simple pale ale and sometimes I brew a belgian cranberry Citra IPA (eager to see how that beer turns out!); either way my friends seem to like what I brew, I like what I brew and judges like what I brew when I submit my beers to competitions (well, mostly). Sure, it's best to have a strong understanding of traditional styles before you start going off the beaten path, but once you have that foundation why not experiment? You might not like the experimental styles, but that doesn't mean the brewer is bad or the beer is bad.
 
I agree talgrath, I enjoy entering the Specialty Category in comps, using oak and anything else we can dream up.
 
I've got 4 beers on tap now. Everyone that tries them really like the cream ale and citra pale ale. I personally like the smoked porter. After about 45 batches, I've finally decided to branch out and try crazier things. I've been trying to perfect my process to where I know exactly how the beer will taste when I brew it, and now I'm there. I agree that sticking to tried and true recipes in the beginning is great for learning the basics, but if anyone wants to branch out and create something new and different so be it. That's part of what I love about this hobby. Some of the best beers I've tried have been unique twists on things. I loved a chai stout a fellow homebrewer made a few years ago so my next brew will be a chai milk stout. Now that I've nailed my process I can try different things knowing the likelihood is higher that it'll turn out as expected. What I'd love to make is a Kentucky bourbon barrel ale. If anyone can point me to a recipe I'd be very grateful.
 
I don't care for people being condescending either. If you want to brew classics or crazy that's cool for you. I'll do my thing. Kinda like life.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew
 
Geez people! I don't see Waylon as being condescending. I see him coming to HBT to vent in an environment he feels comfortable. Come on, we all have the same thing in common with our love of the brew process, right??:mug:
Okay....so what grinds my gears is when the bartender at any brew pub I've been too will automatically put a lemon slice in my beer. Don't molest my beer with fruit!
 
wayloncash said:
Good responses....so agree and disagree. Its not being a purist or pushing the envelope with beer or styles that bothers me. It is more of the hipster beer snob attitude of some who jump to the extremes prior to developing solid brewing technique then attempt to hold themselves above everyone else. Once again, a brewer who can produce a balanced, clean beer with all the right subtlety can also produce a big wild beer, though Im not sure if the opposite would be true without proper fundamentals. It comes down to recognizing and appreciating what it takes to achieve a specific flavor profile, big or small.
Click to expand...


"hipster beer snob attitude"

Translation: get off my lawn.

Balanced, clean beers are boring as hell. I don't really brew extreme beers personally but I also can't remember the last time I even so much as drank a lager, pilsner or kolsch. Because they're boring.
 
Daphne-weizen said:
Geez people! I don't see Waylon as being condescending. I see him coming to HBT to vent in an environment he feels comfortable. Come on, we all have the same thing in common with our love of the brew process, right??:mug:
Okay....so what grinds my gears is when the bartender at any brew pub I've been too will automatically put a lemon slice in my beer. Don't molest my beer with fruit!
Click to expand...

Thank you Daphne...lol...apparently my disdain for condescending people came across as condescending ;) the point is the love of the brewing process and what it takes to reach the end result. Personally I may love a vanilla coconut porter though at the same time really respect someone who can brew a NHBC winning lite lager. Because I understand the process.
 
I think a lot of people are misinterpreting what the OP is saying. It's not about purity or snobbishness so much as (to mix metaphors) newbies putting the cart before the horse and thinking their resultant turd is a gem.

In other words, not saying experimental/nontraditional beer is bad, but rather newbies throwing a bunch of crazy ingredients together without ever learning the basics and acting like they are elite brewers. Or at least that's what I got out of it.

I have nothing against experimental/nontraditional brews, but I will admit my tastes tend to be biased towards traditional styles.

I knew a guy in college that got into homebrewing about the same time I did, and his first batch was something like a raspberry watermelon currant hefeweizen. It was truly awful, but man was he proud of it.

I could make a beer that was 100% crystal 120 and 2lbs of Warrior hops and say I'm being experimental and innovative... but I don't think anyone would be faulty in saying my beer is bad and maybe I need to learn the basics before I get creative.
 
How in the world do you know so much about these brewers just by listening to them? Did they straight up say the things you mentioned or are you just assuming? Have you tried their kitchen sink beer?

If you weren't trying to be condescending, I hate to see how it comes out when you actually are, because the original post was absolutely dripping with it.
 
lol - I'm going in the reverse direction. I'm starting out with some "exotic" sounding beers (see Brooklyn Brew Shop's interestg list of beers) in order to learn and hopefully perfect my methods and understanding so that I can "move on" to some of the classic, traditional and even historic varieties that I am guessing are much more "back to basics...."
 
Thats your interpretation of homebrew. Homebrew to many is making a lot of alcohol for little money or whatever ingredients are on hand... thats what it was up until 25 years ago. Now its become making great craft beer, wine, mead etc.

Its the same reason you speak of that I do my own research before brewing... or any hobby for that matter. It often doesnt take much to get to a point where you're more knowledgeable than many in the business. Heck... Ive been making better beer since my 3rd batch than many of the brew shops and veteran homebrewers I know.
 
From what I'm understanding the OP is not bashing people who brew big robust beers. It seems to be more of a question if they could brew a simple pale ale with the same results. Big beers hide flaws better. If the same brewer made a pale ale with the same technique it could all got to hell. Bad water, under pitching, etc, etc. Those flavors would be noticeable. Basically the fundamentals. What the OP was getting at.

You know what grinds my gears? Dumbasses who dont use their turn signals.
 
wayloncash said:
I came to an epiphany while talking to a salesman/home brewer at a local beer shop. Am I the only one fed up talking to these so called home brewers who don't understand classical beer styles, don't understand balance, don't understand proper fermentation methods...I mean I'm sorry don't act all high and mighty cause you say you brewed a 12% raspberry porter aged in whiskey barrels, with no real description of balance and actual representation of the classical style Porter! Then tell me you like layers of flavor and complexity. Guess what, your kitchen sink beer is crap. Any novice can throw a bunch of grain, yeast and fruit in a barrel and come up with something resembling a beer. Guess what all that **** is just masking your brewing techniques imperfections. Don't get me wrong I like to try unique and over the top brews that push the limits as much as the next guy. But I am sick and tired of these self proclaimed "beer geeks" who think they are master brewers because they serve u something strong and muddy! Give me a well balanced German lager or ale and I'll guarantee you behind that beer sits a real brewer!
Click to expand...

Some famous beer person, (can't remember who) said that, balance is when complexibility meets drinkability. I guess that works well enough. I think what your calling for is a little restraint. Craft breweries can hardly restrain themselve these days. Personaly I wish people would take it slow, learning the ingredients a few at a time. Rather than jumping head first into an IPA with six specialty malts, and a pineapple in the secondary.

--Adam Selene
 
I enjoy reading things on hbt such as: I'm new to all grain brewing. For my 1st all grain brew I decided to make a delicious, mouthwatering, maple syrup, molassas, lager. The guy at the LHBS sold me marris otter malt and 34/70 yeast, I am thinking that a conversion temp of 158F for 90 minutes will be good for the yeast. How's it look?
Then, another brewer replies: Sounds like a great recipe for a lager, but if I were to make it, I'd use two or three quarts of maple syrup and some so5 or Notty. I read somewhere that it takes a lot of maple syrup to crank up the alcohol. I prefer Notty because it really went to town on my honey, vanilla and camomile porter. The air lock and plug blew out and brown foam and beer got all over the dirty laundry in our closet. My SWMBO was not happy about the brown stains on her underwear. I would lengthen the conversion time to 2 hours. It's better to be sure that the minerals and enzymes have enough time to turn the big starch chains into fermentable sugar.
The new brewer replies back: Thanks for the great ideas. I was actually thinking about adding some honey! I wasn't sure if 90 minutes would be long enough, I'll stretch it out to 2 hours. I better grab some Notty next time I'm at the LHBS.

I don't find anything wrong with creating whatever is desired. When first getting started in homebrewing, I brewed with a lot of different ingredients. I had a lot of fun using them. However, the beer was generally, pukey. It was a learning curve, based on my tastebuds and olfactory system.

Considering styles like lager and pils, the beer was brewed using the tri-decoction method. IMO, to call beer Classic Styles, they should be brewed using the method and ingredients that made them Classic Styles. When a homebrewer uses the English method and modern malt to brew a German lager, can the product be called a Classic Lager? Is a Classic Porter one that is produced by the process that was supposedly used to make the beer when it came into existance? Porter was made up of three different beers mixed together by the bartender. Then, later on, mixing took place at the brewery. How could it be possible for a brewer to create Porter by running off a single batch, when three diffferent beers mixed together made Porter?

When I started out homebrewing, Ballantine IPA was used as the sounding board for homebrewing IPA. The beer disappeared in the mid 80s. Our perception of and preference for flavors, change with the options available and time.
 
MrSnacks said:
"hipster beer snob attitude"

Translation: get off my lawn.

Balanced, clean beers are boring as hell. I don't really brew extreme beers personally but I also can't remember the last time I even so much as drank a lager, pilsner or kolsch. Because they're boring.
Click to expand...

It's one of those weird things, everyone I know who brews, agrees that producing a light lager/pilsner consistently over time is the biggest challenge in brewing. But all of those people also agree that those beers are boring.
 
Scele said:
It's one of those weird things, everyone I know who brews, agrees that producing a light lager/pilsner consistently over time is the biggest challenge in brewing. But all of those people also agree that those beers are boring.
Click to expand...

Process and consistency are technical which is not boring

Peeing a lot is annoying, not boring

Drinking light lager is still boring.

Light lagers are more fun to make than drink
 
I am surprised by all the people saying a "big" beer is great at masking off flavors. Have any of you attempted a 10+ abv beer? They are absolutely wretched if you don't understand many "basic" techniques. Oxygenation and proper pitch rate are pretty much required to keep the yeast from stalling out. Temp control is not just a passing thought, it becomes essential when working with bigger beers because they get warmer and ferment longer than smaller beers. Not to mention good racking techniques. A big beer needs age and will oxidize into a hot mess of wet cardboard if not done carefully. Having done several 10+ beers I know how challenging they are and don't diminish someone's feat when they make one that is drinkable. If they fail to make something good and want me to taste it then I will be honest and point out any flaws. But a big complex beer isn't the easy way out.
 
I agree and disagree. More and more now breweries are doing the same, maybe to distinguish themselves from all the others. A local brewery here posts all the time of their beer brewed with every fruit possible...but how is your pale ale?? To be honest it prevents me from going since I'm not into fruit beers but to each their own
 

Similar threads

P
What happened to IPA?
2
Replies
49
Views
3K
Clint Yeastwood
Clint Yeastwood
A
Looking for information on how historical English Porters were aged.
Replies
10
Views
1K
Cheshire Cat
Cheshire Cat
P
A Rant (with room for discussions)
Replies
39
Views
2K
DBhomebrew
DBhomebrew
CurtHagenlocher
For Sale FREE - All my stuff for local pickup in Seattle area
Replies
7
Views
774
threeoten
T
Clint Yeastwood
Sitrep: Better American Lager Getting Near Target Gravity
Replies
0
Views
363
Clint Yeastwood
Clint Yeastwood
InkBird 300

Latest posts

Back
Top