Yes, you can burn your hop sack on the element while brewing

[passedpawn]

I've been guilty of saying, many times over a lot of years, that your hop sack, AKA hop spider, wont burn if it's against your heating element. Well, I was wrong.

I think I'm going to change my chiller from a Blich Therminator to a coaxial CFC, like a Chillzilla, and get rid of the hop thing altogether.

 

[passedpawn]

BTW, there was 11 ounces of hops in there. Against a 5500W ULWD ripple element.

 

[jcav]

Ouch! I ended up going the Chillzilla route as I didn't want to worry about clogging my Therminator. Funny though for first wort hops and light first additions I will add it right to the kettle. After that when I have to add a lot more hops later on I use a large stainless hop spider from Stainless Brewing. It hangs on top of my keggle with legs and bottoms out just above my element without touching. I probably don't need it but I recirculate through my chiller to sanitize and and back into the kettle through a whirlpool fitting so I am still worried about clogging issues. I keep telling myself one day I will just go for it and dump all the hops in bareback so to speak and see what happens!

Sorry you burned your sack! But if you do get a Chillzilla you will love it, it's very efficient. You know this already and how warm our lovely ground water is. So I still have to use ground water first to knock it down to about 100 degrees, but then I use two bags of ice in the mash tun and recirculate the cold water through the chiller and it gets me down to the low 60's with no problems 10 minutes later.

John

 

[passedpawn]

Ouch! I ended up going the Chillzilla route as I didn't want to worry about clogging my Therminator. Funny though for first wort hops and light first additions I will add it right to the kettle. After that when I have to add a lot more hops later on I use a large stainless hop spider from Stainless Brewing. It hangs on top of my keggle with legs and bottoms out just above my element without touching. I probably don't need it but I recirculate through my chiller to sanitize and and back into the kettle through a whirlpool fitting so I am still worried about clogging issues. I keep telling myself one day I will just go for it and dump all the hops in bareback so to speak and see what happens!

Sorry you burned your sack! But if you do get a Chillzilla you will love it, it's very efficient. You know this already and how warm our lovely ground water is. So I still have to use ground water first to knock it down to about 100 degrees, but then I use two bags of ice in the mash tun and recirculate the cold water through the chiller and it gets me down to the low 60's with no problems 10 minutes later.

John

Hi John (man you're the best. I just, for the first time, went through your build thread, and it's quite awesome).

I chill from the pool. I have a submersible pump that drops in there. I suck water from the pool, and the hot water from the CFC returns to the pool. It's probably the same temp as the city water, but I'm green that way

I've always wondered if I could bet better hop utilization if I tossed right into the kettle. My California brother, who I taught to brew years ago, makes the BEST IPA's. He has a very large 1/2 barrel system with a chillzilla-style chiller, and he tosses the hops right into the boiler. I want that.

 

[jcav]

Thanks! You know I use my well water and cool first with that and I fill the pool with the exiting well water into my pool. You just gave me a great idea! Next brew day I am going to chill first with pool water and return to the pool. Plus if your brother is going bareback with his hops with no clogging problems then so am I Thanks for the cool tips!

John

 

[passedpawn]

Ouch! I ended up going the Chillzilla route as I didn't want to worry about clogging my Therminator. Funny though for first wort hops and light first additions I will add it right to the kettle. After that when I have to add a lot more hops later on I use a large stainless hop spider from Stainless Brewing. It hangs on top of my keggle with legs and bottoms out just above my element without touching. I probably don't need it but I recirculate through my chiller to sanitize and and back into the kettle through a whirlpool fitting so I am still worried about clogging issues. I keep telling myself one day I will just go for it and dump all the hops in bareback so to speak and see what happens!

Sorry you burned your sack! But if you do get a Chillzilla you will love it, it's very efficient. You know this already and how warm our lovely ground water is. So I still have to use ground water first to knock it down to about 100 degrees, but then I use two bags of ice in the mash tun and recirculate the cold water through the chiller and it gets me down to the low 60's with no problems 10 minutes later.

John

I would only go the Chillzilla route if I could get rid of the hop sack altogether. That would be ideal. I need to do a bit of research and see if that's possible.

If the Chillzilla can get clogged with loose hop pellets, then I'll just keep my plate chiller and buy a different hop strainer, i.e., that one from SS Brewing. My plate chiller's been mostly dependable since I bought it about 7 years ago. For example, I ran back-to-back 12g batches through it yesterday. Both batches had 11 oz of hop pellets in them (in the hop spider). No problem for the plate chiller. I didn't even rinse it out between batches.

 

[jcav]

I would only go the Chillzilla route if I could get rid of the hop sack altogether. That would be ideal. I need to do a bit of research and see if that's possible.

If the Chillzilla can get clogged with loose hop pellets, then I'll just keep my plate chiller and buy a different hop strainer, i.e., that one from SS Brewing. My plate chiller's been mostly dependable since I bought it about 7 years ago. For example, I ran back-to-back 12g batches through it yesterday. Both batches had 11 oz of hop pellets in them (in the hop spider). No problem for the plate chiller. I didn't even rinse it out between batches.

That is the big question. The pipe inside the Chillzilla looks like it wouldn't clog compared to the plate chiller. Between the larger diameter of the pipe coupled with the pressure of the pump forcing the wort through it, I think it wouldn't clog. What I am worried about is when I am whirl pooling at the end when the boil is over and I am chilling while whirl pooling. The cold break, protein, trub, and general thickening of the wort particles that drop out, even though my pick up tube is on the bottom side of the kettle and not in the middle, I still wonder if the Chillzilla would clog. I might have to bite the bullet next brew day and throw the hops in without the spider and see if the chiller clogs.

By the way I just brewed a Janet's Brown Ale with 13 ounces of hops in the boil kettle (4 oz of dry hops are going in the fermenter this week) and that stainless hop spider from Stainless Brewing works great. It allows some of the smaller particles through and the wort gets inside the screen very well so you get very good utilization. The really big pile of hops still stays inside the spider though and it does a good job containing the big stuff, so it's a good screen size that allows flow and containment if your thinking about getting one. Your chiller is the bomb!

John

 

[passedpawn]

That is the big question. The pipe inside the Chillzilla looks like it wouldn't clog compared to the plate chiller. Between the larger diameter of the pipe coupled with the pressure of the pump forcing the wort through it, I think it wouldn't clog. What I am worried about is when I am whirl pooling at the end when the boil is over and I am chilling while whirl pooling. The cold break, protein, trub, and general thickening of the wort particles that drop out, even though my pick up tube is on the bottom side of the kettle and not in the middle, I still wonder if the Chillzilla would clog. I might have to bite the bullet next brew day and throw the hops in without the spider and see if the chiller clogs.

By the way I just brewed a Janet's Brown Ale with 13 ounces of hops in the boil kettle (4 oz of dry hops are going in the fermenter this week) and that stainless hop spider from Stainless Brewing works great. It allows some of the smaller particles through and the wort gets inside the screen very well so you get very good utilization. The really big pile of hops still stays inside the spider though and it does a good job containing the big stuff, so it's a good screen size that allows flow and containment if your thinking about getting one. Your chiller is the bomb!

John

Hmmm.

I spoke with my little bro today. He's got a killer 25g system. He freeballs his hops into the boil kettle since he has a coaxial CFC. It's a large system (he just made an IPA with 1.5 # of hop pellets in there). He's never had a jam. He does whirlpool and create a pretty nice cone.

So I think I'll just get the CFC. It'd be great to just toss the hops into the boiler.

 

[jcav]

I think your right. Here is a little video of the Chillzilla. Mine has nice garden hose fittings on the water ends and 1/2 inch npt on the wort ends. They sell it this way now so it's easy to attach your hoses to it. Anyway at 22 seconds into the vid you can see a piece of the wort pipe sitting on the table and the guy picks it up and you can see the diameter. I am worried for nothing. It would take some cement in the wort to make that clog with the pump! Here is the vid: [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0pxs3RHdUA[/ame]

John

 

[passedpawn]

Thanks John. I'm not trying to be right. Just trying to get as much info as possible to make the best possible decision.

Cheers!

 

[The_Bishop]

I've been using a ZChiller, the large one. It's crazy effective at knocking temperatures down, has great flow, and doesn't clog. It's also easy to clean.

I toss my hop pellets in, free floating.

 

[passedpawn]

I've been using a ZChiller, the large one. It's crazy effective at knocking temperatures down, has great flow, and doesn't clog. It's also easy to clean.

I toss my hop pellets in, free floating.

Thanks! It's almost exactly what I'm looking for (convoluted copper inner pipe).

 

[jcav]

That Zchiller looks like a very effective one too. Glad to hear it doesn't clog. I hope your search gets you the answer you are looking for Andrew. I still think your right though, that opening is pretty big! Could probably drive a Mack truck full of hops through it

John

 

[passedpawn]

That Zchiller looks like a very effective one too. Glad to hear it doesn't clog. I hope your search gets you the answer you are looking for Andrew. I still think your right though, that opening is pretty big! Could probably drive a Mack truck full of hops through it

John

Did you consider using the "Hop Stopper" that Kal sells on his site? I'm a little suspicious of whether it works as well as described. Cleaning it (getting it out from under the element), having it clog, having it suck air when pumping.

After reading your build thread recently, I think I'll finally build a stand for my system and I'm rethinking everything.

 

[Homercidal]

Have you considered a multiple stage IC and something to stir the wort with? No clogging with that setup. Supposed to have a pretty good efficiency over a single pass IC.

I'd love to get or make one, but my Element and other things are in the way and I haven't figured out how to deal with that. If I brewed more than 5 gallons, then my keggle would be fine for it, but there isn't much wort above the element now.

 

[passedpawn]

Have you considered a multiple stage IC and something to stir the wort with? No clogging with that setup. Supposed to have a pretty good efficiency over a single pass IC.

I'd love to get or make one, but my Element and other things are in the way and I haven't figured out how to deal with that. If I brewed more than 5 gallons, then my keggle would be fine for it, but there isn't much wort above the element now.

I've got an element too. Kinda makes an IC impractical.

What I should do is just use a chain hoist to lower my BK into the pool. That would be a lot of surface area, and with the pump moving the wort inside, it would probably work great - until it didn't, which would be epic.

Anyway, I'm still tossing around ideas for improved chilling & filtering of hops / break material.

 

[Homercidal]

I've got an element too. Kinda makes an IC impractical.

Yes. Jaded claims to have methods of making an IC practical in that kind of setup, but I haven't seen it yet. I would like to attempt to do a decent job myself someday, but the confines of the BK, plus my experience in bending copper makes me think that I wouldn't be successful.

A smart man like yourself should be able to do it, though!

 

[jcav]

Did you consider using the "Hop Stopper" that Kal sells on his site? I'm a little suspicious of whether it works as well as described. Cleaning it (getting it out from under the element), having it clog, having it suck air when pumping.

After reading your build thread recently, I think I'll finally build a stand for my system and I'm rethinking everything.

Hi Andrew, that is an excellent question. I did at first consider using it. The thing is I use keggles and Kal uses the 20 gallon Blichmann kettles which are a totally different diameter. I use a tri clover siphon and Kal's is not set up for tri clovers. I have a short siphon that I use so I can whirl pool and not pick up the stuff in the cone in the middle of the keggle that the whirl pool piled up nicely. (I do have a long siphon also that I could use but decided to go the whirl pool route). Also the electric element in the keggle takes up a lot of room and in a 20 gallon kettle there is more room for his Hop Stopper but not in mine. You also would have to mount the element fairly high as the stopper goes underneath the element. That plus the issue with once the wort level in the kettle drops to the point where air is exposed to the hop stopper screen, you have to slow the pump way down to a trickle or it will break the siphon and the flow of wort will stop, I decided not to go this route. Hope this helps in your quest for answers....

You should definitely build a stand! They are very functional and fun to brew on. The pumps mounted to the stand with all the hoses off the ground and doing their thing makes for a smooth brew day. I keep all the vessels on the stand when not in use and store it in my garage and cover it with a plastic paint drop cloth to keep it clean.

John

 

[rudylyon57]

I've been guilty of saying, many times over a lot of years, that your hop sack, AKA hop spider, wont burn if it's against your heating element. Well, I was wrong.

I think I'm going to change my chiller from a Blich Therminator to a coaxial CFC, like a Chillzilla, and get rid of the hop thing altogether.

Passedpawn: Sounds like you are in the same boat as I am. I used a hop spider only to keep my plate chiller from clogging but have been concerned with poor hop utilization while doing so. Thankfully I've never burned the hop bag though. i recently built a CFC from 1/2OD (.45 ID) copper tube and 3/4" PEX so I don't have to be concerned with utilization or clogging. The 25 foot long coil drops 6 gallons of wort from 212F to 65F in about 10 minutes using 3 gpm of 55F well water while recirculating wort (not sure of wort flow...maybe 1.5 GPM)?. So, performance seems good. I doubt I'll ever plug the .45 bore on it. The .45 bore also allows for a decent flow rate while whirlpooling and I'm sure it cleans more reliably than a plate design.

I think your are headed in the right direction with a CFC.

 

[GreenMonti]

My time in home brewing has only been using a IC. I just like them. My current IC I built a long time ago using 3/8 IIRC.

My latest adventure in brewing has been to try electric brewing. I am still using my same IC. It sits on my elemnt. My last batch I used my paddle in my drill to stir the wort while cooling. I got the 6.5 gallons (post boil) down to 68 in 16 mins. That's with 55 degree ground water. Is there a faster way? I'm sure there is. However my IC is super easy to clean with just a spray of water and no amount of hops will clog it. It's also very easy to sanitize.

 

[passedpawn]

My time in home brewing has only been using a IC. I just like them. My current IC I built a long time ago using 3/8 IIRC.

My latest adventure in brewing has been to try electric brewing. I am still using my same IC. It sits on my elemnt. My last batch I used my paddle in my drill to stir the wort while cooling. I got the 6.5 gallons (post boil) down to 68 in 16 mins. That's with 55 degree ground water. Is there a faster way? I'm sure there is. However my IC is super easy to clean with just a spray of water and no amount of hops will clog it. It's also very easy to sanitize.

I've thought about it. I gave my IC away a long time ago, so I probably wouldn't go with that now. Besides, my batches are twice as big, and my groundwater is my poolwater which might be 90F in the summer (in that case, I just put the fermentors into the chamber for a few hours, then pitch yeast). So, my cooling would be much slower than yours with an IC.

I'm not in a race to chill, but like everyone else I've got other things to do on a wkend.

IC's have their advantages for sure. But if they leak, they can be problematic. I had the hose connection blow all over the place before.

 

[passedpawn]

My time in home brewing has only been using a IC. I just like them. My current IC I built a long time ago using 3/8 IIRC.

My latest adventure in brewing has been to try electric brewing. I am still using my same IC. It sits on my elemnt. My last batch I used my paddle in my drill to stir the wort while cooling. I got the 6.5 gallons (post boil) down to 68 in 16 mins. That's with 55 degree ground water. Is there a faster way? I'm sure there is. However my IC is super easy to clean with just a spray of water and no amount of hops will clog it. It's also very easy to sanitize.

Here's a pic for you. I used to chill like this: IC on the inside, pool on the outside, styro noodle doing the heavy lifting.

BTW, glad to see you active here again. I remember you and kladue giving a real clinic on inventive brewing equipment a few years ago.

 

[applescrap]

Here's a pic for you. I used to chill like this: IC on the inside, pool on the outside, styro noodle doing the heavy lifting.

BTW, glad to see you active here again. I remember you and kladue giving a real clinic on inventive brewing equipment a few years ago.

This pic is so cool. Glad you said how many hops used, because i was like damn thats a lot of hops. My 2c. hope I am not making a fool of myself. If it took years to burn, get another one, no? My first thought was ic, but my element isnt mounted so I can see that being a problem. But if you can protect bottom with like pizza screen folded in half you then pump ic up and down rapidly and i chilled ten gallons 3 weeks ago in i think it was 12 min. Plus it aerates the wort. My s...ty ic that was 40 dollars i have learned to tighten worm drives every time before use to keep leaky ic honest. But there are better fittings that are rock solid. Submerge that pump of yours in a bucket of ice water after you run the real hot off and put the out of ic into bucket to and it will self cycle, green too. With you pumping it up and down 12 minutes you will be at 70. What about using a bazooka screen on therminator or cfc in or I mean on the ball valve leading to it?

 

[Homercidal]

What about a simple course mesh shield over the element to keep the bag from contacting? I imagine it takes a decent amount of force and a moment or two before the bag burns. The shield could kept it from contacting long enough for that to happen.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

So you burnt your sack while brewing?

Maybe next time wear pants?

 

[bbohanon]

So you burnt your sack while brewing?

Maybe next time wear pants?

I was reading this thread hoping this had not been said yet..lol..No one likes a burnt sack...ROFL

 

[GreenMonti]

I've thought about it. I gave my IC away a long time ago, so I probably wouldn't go with that now. Besides, my batches are twice as big, and my groundwater is my poolwater which might be 90F in the summer (in that case, I just put the fermentors into the chamber for a few hours, then pitch yeast). So, my cooling would be much slower than yours with an IC.

I'm not in a race to chill, but like everyone else I've got other things to do on a wkend.

IC's have their advantages for sure. But if they leak, they can be problematic. I had the hose connection blow all over the place before.

As you know, there's pros and cons to everything. Just a matter of which cons you can live with for said period of time. Using your pool as the chilling water is a great idea. Makes me want to come up with something I could use. Nevertheless, any chiller will be limited to how far it can cool your wort. If the pool is 90 degrees then.........for me, 10 mins of chilling vs 16 mins of chilling is a bit moot. I mean, how much time does it take to clean the other chillers on the backside? Clear a clog? You also have to think about cleaning and using the bag for hops because of said chiller. No one ever puts that into the equation, just the chilling times. Cleaning my IC is literally 10 seconds. I just rinse it off. It's always seemed to be a wash in my mind.

When I built my chiller I made it so the the connections are outside the kettle. I also used compression fittings and have never had a leak. Of course, I handle my stuff pretty gentle. I'm the methodical type.

For you, maybe slightly larger tubing like 1/2" might be beneficial. Since you have more wort to cool, the water will pickup more heat during its journey in the chiller. You have the benefit of being able to pump as fast as you want through the chiller since its pool water. No waste. Even save you money in the winter. Depending on if you heat the pool or not. Haha.

That's a cool pic by the way. Made me smile.:fro: it's also nice to hear my presence isn't off putting.

 

[passedpawn]

As you know, there's pros and cons to everything. Just a matter of which cons you can live with for said period of time. Using your pool as the chilling water is a great idea. Makes me want to come up with something I could use. Nevertheless, any chiller will be limited to how far it can cool your wort. If the pool is 90 degrees then.........for me, 10 mins of chilling vs 16 mins of chilling is a bit moot. I mean, how much time does it take to clean the other chillers on the backside? Clear a clog? You also have to think about cleaning and using the bag for hops because of said chiller. No one ever puts that into the equation, just the chilling times. Cleaning my IC is literally 10 seconds. I just rinse it off. It's always seemed to be a wash in my mind.

When I built my chiller I made it so the the connections are outside the kettle. I also used compression fittings and have never had a leak. Of course, I handle my stuff pretty gentle. I'm the methodical type.

For you, maybe slightly larger tubing like 1/2" might be beneficial. Since you have more wort to cool, the water will pickup more heat during its journey in the chiller. You have the benefit of being able to pump as fast as you want through the chiller since its pool water. No waste. Even save you money in the winter. Depending on if you heat the pool or not. Haha.

That's a cool pic by the way. Made me smile.:fro: it's also nice to hear my presence isn't off putting.

You're right, cleaning time of the chiller needs to be factored into the equation. I used to spend a lot of time heating water and recircing through the plate chiller. Now I just hose it out. It's a mystery how much crap I'm leaving in there

That's old equipment in the pic, in case I didn't state that earlier. I've got a plate chiller and 1/2 silicon tubing to everything now.

Here's another blast from the past. This was the fastest chilling I achieved from my IC. As long as Marlee kept her darned nose out of it, I could get the batch down to pitching temps in about 1 minute (in the winter. Note that the waterfall coming out of the spa is running around the pot. Worked great, if you didn't mind the significant risk:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=197d0C2RP-Y[/ame]

 

[milldoggy]

I use a Kal clone system and chillzilla. Only way to go. I love have super clear wort, so recently I added a large stainless spider and the hop stopper. You will be amazed at what the stopper collects even when all hops are in the spider. I have not noticed any differences in hop flavor using this method over free balling the hops. It does help with the flow rate though and blocks a ton of break material.

I recently switched to a stainless chillzilla, I added a stainless shell and tube exchanger in series to get the same efficiency as the copper one, but my shell and tube doubles as my herm hex, so not a big deal.
http://www.badger-pipe.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=SP85-OS

 

[GreenMonti]

You're right, cleaning time of the chiller needs to be factored into the equation. I used to spend a lot of time heating water and recircing through the plate chiller. Now I just hose it out. It's a mystery how much crap I'm leaving in there

That's old equipment in the pic, in case I didn't state that earlier. I've got a plate chiller and 1/2 silicon tubing to everything now.

Here's another blast from the past. This was the fastest chilling I achieved from my IC. As long as Marlee kept her darned nose out of it, I could get the batch down to pitching temps in about 1 minute (in the winter. Note that the waterfall coming out of the spa is running around the pot. Worked great, if you didn't mind the significant risk:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=197d0C2RP-Y

Haha, that's crazy. That time frame, I'd risk it. Yes, you did mention your current setup. I've been very tempted to go with w plate chiller. I personally just can't get over the unknown. Did I run long enough to sanitize it, did it get hot enough, is it clean inside? They don't think they're for me. That's just me though. They're a great piece of equipment. It sounds like you've got a pretty fast cleaning method down.

Do you think you could maybe modify a trub catcher to fit you kettle? Maybe a whirlpool before the chill could get you away from the bag? Just spitballing here.