Being new to the whole brewing thing, there is so much to read about all aspects of brewing and sometimes there is conflicting information, so what are the pros and cons of making a yeast starter.
thanks
newbe dave
thanks
newbe dave
Some people decide to pitch two packets of dry yeast. And while that may work, I would personally consider it to be a hack move that affects the health/quality/complexity of the final product... Especially if you're desiring a bit more character from the malt and the yeast.
Are you saying this with the assumption that you would be over-pitching by adding more dry yeast?
A thread about starters and no one has said Mr. Malty? I'll say it: Consult Mr. Malty.
http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html
For a good write up on pitch rates take a look at the one on the WYeast website:
http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_pitchrates.cfm
Over pitching means that there will be less cell divisions by the time the fermentation completes. When the cells divide they produce some of their characteristic flavors. Whether two packs of dry yeast is over pitching depends on how much beer you are making, but you would need to be making about 10 gallons of a 1.060 gravity beer for it to be appropriate.
Again, just asking to learn.
What about making a smaller batch (2.5 gal) of a higher gravity beer? I know that for anything over 1.063+/- of a 5 gal batch, you should make a starter. My thinking was that the cell count of a dry yeast packet in a half batch of a high gravity would suffice....is that thinking correct? Btw, I'm doing half batches so I can brew AG with my limited space/equipment.
With liquid yeast there is a lot more variety than with dry yeast. Also, dry yeast are usually packaged in a way that the manufacturers recommend not using a starter because they have already been prepared with the optimum nutrients in the package. Putting them in a starter can use up their energy reserves and makes them less likely to finish the job. With dry the recommendation is to rehydrate in warm water prior to pitching which is not the same as building a starter.
With high gravity using dry you should add more packets and rehydrate. I've read that putting them through a starter will deplete their built in energy reserves. Most manufacturers recommend rehydrating in warm water with dry. Liquid is different because they have let the yeast go dormant so building a starter gets them back into action and increases viability/cell count. Think of dry yeast being active and frozen in time in that state while liquid yeast are hibernating/dormant and need to build up their energy reserves for fermentation. I always add yeast nutrients and oxygen to the wort either way to help them on the long road.
I also don't have any love for the Wyeast tool. IMO, it sucks worst of all. They make great yeast, but that tool is nigh on useless (for me at least).
And show me the Wyeast pack that actually has 100 billion viable cells in it (other than right off the line) and I'll surprised. The fact that they don't recognize a loss of viability for most (dare I say, all?) retail customers is rather specious, IMO. Somebody following that advice for a pack that's several months old is just bound to be disappointed.
Both of the known good tools (mr.malty and yeastcalc) show a loss of viability even if the yeast is a few days/week old.
While you can brew something that won't need a starter, with ultra-fresh yeast (OG <1.030) I seriously doubt that I ever will. All my brews have an OG above 1.050 with most being above 1.060.
If the brewer doesn't make a starter for a pack that's several months old (or even several weeks old) the batch will have a much longer lag phase. I pitched the slurry from a three step starter last night. Made the starter with two vials of WLP099 that were made in December of 2011. Batch was going into the blowoff assembly (more wort made it into primary than I had thought would) after not even 12 hours. :rockin: I was within 10% of the cell count I needed for the batch (offset due to more wort post boil).
IMO, pitching closer to the yeast cell count needed for a batch is a rather important item. I know many new brewers (and even some more experienced ones) scoff at making starters. Or think it's too difficult to do. I see that as them being lazy and not really caring about how the batch comes out. Proper yeast handling is just as important (more to some) as the recipe you're brewing. Learning how to yeast wrangle will only improve your brews moving forward. Right up there with fermenting a batch at the right temperature (which is the yeast doing more for the batch).
You're preaching to the choir.
What I've found in my fairly new life of being a brewer is that wyeast sucks. Maybe I'll gain more appreciation for it after I use a starter the next time I use it. We will see.
All the beer I've brewerd with wyeast and not used a starter have taken a long time to start fermenting as well as produce low ABV%. With that being said lesson learned that wyeast HAS TO HAVE a starter otherwise be prepared for dissapointment.
All the dry yeast I've used has done its job as it should when it should.
Will be washing some yeast and making my first starters after my current batch of german ale is racked.
I've got a good steady environment for fermenting two rooms to be honest with one being lower 60's the other upper 60's.
I agree that my lack of experience has some faults with not using starters, as mentioned I"m not a seasoned brewer, but getting better daily thanks to this site and the search button.
As for the age of the smack packs, didn't really look at the date but both came with kits from Williams brewing.
I think the issue as you mentioned is that starters are a must with liquid packs and if wyeast would do the honors of noting that on their packs that would help us new brewers. Shame on them.
Also in this day in age we shouldn't have to make a product better by using starters. Shouldn't these yeast companies have all this figured out by now??? After all they are the experts.
I'm a perfectionist in a way, maybe a little OCD and dont' consider myself to be a sloppy brewer by any means. I check primary temps 3-5 times daily.
I have made belgian pales and imperial IPA up to 1,070 and pitched one smack pack - no problems no stuck fermentation or under attenuation. Don't waste time or money is what I say but look above how many people say making a starter is 100% essential for the successes of any beer so you be the judge my friend!
How long does it take to get going (lag phase)? Also, how fresh are the packs? IME, older packs, and underpitching increases lag time. Virtually all the threads made from people having more than 24 hours of no activity are due to underpitching and extended lag time it results in. Pitching the correct amount of cells results in greatly reduced lag time. Also, using [liquid] yeast that's older (over a month or two from production date] greatly benefits from a starter.
I used a starter for my big barleywine (still fermenting BTW) with two old (10+ months old) vials of WLP099. It was full active in less than 8 hours. That's with it in the lower end of it's temperature range too (actually a bit below it).
IMO do what you want. But, consult the calculation tools/sites to see how much you're actually underpitching. While you can still ferment that way, you have a higher chance of having increased off flavors due to stressed yeast. With how cheap it is to make a starter (on a stirplate at least), I don't see it as any issue doing so. At least if you buy the DME in more than 1# bags from a seller that isn't going to grape you over it. 100-200 grams of DME is short money when you think about it. Far less than getting another pack of yeast, or dumping a batch if it's completely not what you wanted (or tastes so bad you can't drink it).
Thats one thing I forgot to mention, my LHBS ask me what I want when she does a wyeast order every 3 months so I use yeast that has been packaged under 2 weeks
That doesn't mesh... Unless you're only using the yeast one time, or not getting any more until after she places another order (3 months later). If you're buying the yeast before she places another order, it could be over 3 months old by the time you buy it, or use it.
Being opposed to making starters, IMO, is unwise. Thinking you can't is uneducated. Knowing how, knowing their benefits, having the hardware to make at least a simple starter, and choosing not to is foolish.
It's not complicated man read the post again....
fresh yeast comes every 3 months the date is clearly printed on the packet under 2 weeks old.
me put yeast in beer NO STARTER!
I NEVER reuse yeast too much trouble.
I can walk you through it step by step if you like but I think that may be as useful as beating a dead horse.
I have made belgian pales and imperial IPA up to 1,070 and pitched one smack pack - no problems no stuck fermentation or under attenuation. !
Also in this day in age we shouldn't have to make a product better by using starters. Shouldn't these yeast companies have all this figured out by now??? After all they are the experts.
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