Yeast starter question

[berley31]

About to start brewing my second beer, a simple extract hefeweizen recipe with a calculated OG of 1.061. I ordered the Wyeast Weizen yeast required, and had it shipped to my LHBS. The production date on the package is Sept.1/09.

So... using the pitching calculator at mrmalty.com, it's calling for about a 3.25 L starter... with 2 packs of yeast! I only have the one, so I was going to make a 3 L starter with it and hope for the best.

Do you think this will yield sufficient results? Should I start with 500 mL and then jump up to the 3 L from there? I'm assuming I should then cool the starter overnight and pour off all that starter wort, and then just pitch the yeast.

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[gtpro]

is it dry yeast? Most dry yeast doesn't even require a starter, but if you choose to use one, just one packet should be fine. Dry yeast packets have something like 100 billion yeast cells, plenty for pitching directly into 5 gallons.

 

[berley31]

Does Wyeast make dry yeast?

No, it's a typical smack-pack.

 

[TipsyDragon]

Dry yeast packets have something like 100 billion yeast cells.

not exactly true. they have an average of 6 billion cells per gram. and most packets have several grams of yeast in them. a liquid yeast packet like Wyeast have an average of 100 billion cells per package.

according to John Palmer you really only need a 1 quart starter OR 2 packets of yeast.

 

[Scimmia]

not exactly true. they have an average of 6 billion cells per gram.

Source? Dr. Clayton Cone at Danstar claims 20 billion cells per gram, verified by cell counts done by Jamil Zainasheff and others.

Of course, pitched directly into the wort, you're going to kill a whole lot, which would probably get you closer to 6 billion.

 

[Scimmia]

Back to the OP's question, I've always found that part of the calculator suspect, because I've never seen any data backing it up. There's far, far to many variables in storage and handling for it to be as simple as the calculator makes it seem IMO.

 

[berley31]

That would be a good thing if you're right... because I have no intention on making a 4 L starter with 2 packs of Wyeast.

So, do you think one pack of Wyeast in a 3 L starter would be enough? I obviously don't want to overdo it either.

 

[khiddy]

I'm pretty sure that its EITHER two packs of yeast with no starter, OR a 3.25L starter - which can be built-up from just one smack-pack. The caveat is that you should step it up, not just go all at once: pitch the smack-pack into a 1L starter, run that on your stirplate (or shake vigorously every few hours) for 24 hours, then decant into a 3L starter and repeat the process prior to pitching into your wort.

 

[berley31]

Khiddy: I'm quite sure it's two packs WITH a 3.something L starter... that's what it says directly, I think. It actually says to use 9+ packs of yeast WITHOUT a starter... which is ridiculous, of course. This is with the selection of intermittent shaking of the starter, and a production date of Sept 1/09.

 

[TipsyDragon]

Source? Dr. Clayton Cone at Danstar claims 20 billion cells per gram, verified by cell counts done by Jamil Zainasheff and others.

page 68 paragraph 2 How To Brew by John Palmer. if its wrong its wrong and i'm sorry.

 

[McGarnigle]

Khiddy: I'm quite sure it's two packs WITH a 3.something L starter... that's what it says directly, I think. It actually says to use 9+ packs of yeast WITHOUT a starter... which is ridiculous, of course. This is with the selection of intermittent shaking of the starter, and a production date of Sept 1/09.

I don't see where you get that. Do you have this set on lager?

 

[berley31]

Set on Ale, OG 1.061, 5 US Gallons, Prod date Sept 1/09.

Liquid yeast, intermittent shaking... the bar dragged over to the right so that it's set for Use larger starters (fewer yeast packs).

Comes to 3.66 L starter with TWO packs of yeast required.

 

[McGarnigle]

Ahh, I was entering 12/1 not 9/1. The age of the yeast is really working against you. So I don't really have any advice, other than to say I'd probably defiantly make a big starter with only one pack. I have little doubt you could also do it in two stages rather than buy two packs.

 

[berley31]

I think I'm going to try making a 500 mL starter first, then increase to 3 L from there. Getting another pack of yeast right now isn't an option (I have to send away for one where I live), and it's expensive as well.

Maybe 3 L won't be enough with one pack (certainly not according to mrmalty), but I also don't want to risk pitching too much and getting autolysis.

We'll see how it works...

 

[bce22]

...but I also don't want to risk pitching too much and getting autolysis.

We'll see how it works...

This is not a concern at all. You WON'T get autolysis from overpitching. No way, no how should this concern you.

If I had to select pitching too much yeast or not enough I'll over pitch every time.

 

[berley31]

Agreed... basically the main thing here is I don't want to make a 8 L starter! I think a 2 gallon starter is just too much work.

 

[Scimmia]

A 500 ml starter should be plenty to get it back to where it should be. That's what I use pitching a few ml of frozen slurry before pitching into my main starter.

 

[Scimmia]

page 68 paragraph 2 How To Brew by John Palmer. if its wrong its wrong and i'm sorry.

I haven't done the cell counts, so I can't say that it's wrong, I was just wondering where the number came from. I don't have the book in front of me, does he say if it's rehydrated or pitched directly? I could certainly see it being 6 billion live cells if pitched directly into the wort. Looking back, Dr. Cone says that even rehydrating in 60*F water can kill enough to get you down to 8 billion per gram.

 

[berley31]

So, now assuming I make this 3 L starter.. is my best option when I make the 3 L portion to let it sit at room temp for 12-18 hours, THEN put it in the fridge overnight, decant the wort off the next day, and pitch just the yeast?

 

[McGarnigle]

3 liters is a bit much to pitch the whole thing. So the fridge decant process is the way to go. As far as room temp time is concerned, you need to let it go long enough to finish up. Maybe that's 12-18 hours, but verify first.

 

[bce22]

So, now assuming I make this 3 L starter.. is my best option when I make the 3 L portion to let it sit at room temp for 12-18 hours, THEN put it in the fridge overnight, decant the wort off the next day, and pitch just the yeast?

If it was me, I'd make a 3L starter from the beginning. Let it finish fermenting, frig it overnight and decant. Here is a quote from a different thread.

Starter size is independent of the # of packs of yeast. You can make up to a 4L starter with one package of yeast. Mr. Malty will recommend using more packs if your yeast is old, but I haven't found it necessary, I have made 2L starters from year old White Labs tubes out of the expired yeast bin at LHBS and had them take off just fine.

 

[berley31]

Originally Posted by Saccharomyces View Post
Starter size is independent of the # of packs of yeast. You can make up to a 4L starter with one package of yeast. Mr. Malty will recommend using more packs if your yeast is old, but I haven't found it necessary, I have made 2L starters from year old White Labs tubes out of the expired yeast bin at LHBS and had them take off just fine.

That's useful, actually... this whole production date thing has been making me definitely overthink things.

 

[berley31]

bce22: Sorry, I forgot to ask, but you're basically saying it's not necessary to start with a 500 mL starter and then go to 3 L... I should just make a 3 L starter and leave it at that?

 

[Scimmia]

I know what Saccharomyces has said, but I don't buy it. You wouldn't pitch from a slant directly into a 4L starter, would you? Initial yeast count does matter for yeast health, if nothing else.

 

[bce22]

bce22: Sorry, I forgot to ask, but you're basically saying it's not necessary to start with a 500 mL starter and then go to 3 L... I should just make a 3 L starter and leave it at that?

Thats what I would do, based on what I've read about making a starter. It seems people have had decent luck with making pretty large starters 2-3L without stepping up.

If it was my beer I'd use 300G of DME (approx 10.6 oz) topped off with water to get it to 3L and then boil that for 15 minutes. Bring to 70F and pitch the yeast and cover with sanitized foil.

If you don't have a stir plate, shake it up as often as possible. Once fermentation subsides and the yeast fall out of suspension stick it in the frig.

Its really important for you to wait until fermentation is complete before sticking it in the frig.