yeast nutrients and yeast hulls

[Lepetitnormand]

Hello,

I am looking to start an new batch of hard cider tomorrow using mangrove jack cider yeast and trader joe's juice.

My previous batches were smelling pretty bad so this time I will had some yeast nutrients. In beers you get them during the boil, what about cider, just throw them in or boil some juice with them ?

Happy brewing and as this is saturday evening ... well drinking too

 

[bernardsmith]

You don't brew cider. You cook apples to make jam or sauce and set pectins, not cider. Avoid heat. To add nutrient I would add half the nutrient you plan on adding when the yeast begin to ferment the sugars and half of the remaining quantity when the amount of sugar has dropped by half (if your starting gravity is 1.050, then when the gravity drops to about 1.025) and the final quarter when the gravity drops to 1.015 or thereabouts. If as a brewer you are too anxious to take gravity readings throughout the fermentation then you can add all the nutrient when the fermentation has taken off but you will not get all the benefit of the staggered feeding.
But a word of caution: if you add powder to the fermenting liquid you will nucleate the CO2 that has been absorbed by the liquid. If you are fermenting in a bucket that may not be an issue but if you are fermenting in a narrow mouthed carboy you are likely to create a volcano of liquid that can eject with enough energy to paint your ceiling. Mix the nutrient in a little water or must or juice before you add it.

 

[Maylar]

If you're using yeast hulls for nutrients boil it in a small amount of water to kill them and add it in after it cools. If you're using regular yeast nutrient, DAP, Fermaid-O or K etc. then just mix it in as a powder before pitching your yeast.

Staggered nutrients is for high gravity meads, not cider.

 

[bernardsmith]

Staggered nutrients is for high gravity meads, not cider.

Perhaps... although it does not look as though all commercial wineries agree with that opinion. Yeast need nitrogen and magnesium and potassium no matter the sugar concentration or the sugar. And IMO, one of the reasons why brewers seem to regularly accept that their ciders blow off hydrogen sulfide is because they fail to feed the yeast they use.

http://www.pennsylvaniawine.com/sites/default/files/Yeast Nutrition.pdf

 

[Maylar]

Perhaps... although it does not look as though all commercial wineries agree with that opinion. Yeast need nitrogen and magnesium and potassium no matter the sugar concentration or the sugar. And IMO, one of the reasons why brewers seem to regularly accept that their ciders blow off hydrogen sulfide is because they fail to feed the yeast they use.

Honey has almost nothing for nutrients, that's why the mead guys have developed those SNA protocols. Apples have the trace elements and thiamine (B1) that yeast need, all that's missing is a bit of nitrogen. Adding some nitrogen up front will keep the sulfur at bay.

The ideal cider protocol is to ferment at very low temperature with minimal or no nutrients. Even to the point of allowing the ferment to stall, as the French often do. A slow ferment lets the flavors and aroma of the apples come through. Adding nutrients to feed a fast and furious ferment like the mead guys do will blow all that right out the airlock.

It's all very intertwined - yeast selection, nutrient addition, and temperature. 5 degrees can make the difference between H2S production and none.

 

[MindenMan]

If you want some yeast hulls boil some baker's yeast in a little water and when cool add it to your must. When choosing a yeast find one that does (or does not) produce esters to keep the flavor profile you are desiring. And as little as 5 degrees difference in fermentation temperature can drastically change the flavor of your cider.

 

[kukubau]

Perhaps... although it does not look as though all commercial wineries agree with that opinion. Yeast need nitrogen and magnesium and potassium no matter the sugar concentration or the sugar. And IMO, one of the reasons why brewers seem to regularly accept that their ciders blow off hydrogen sulfide is because they fail to feed the yeast they use.

http://www.pennsylvaniawine.com/sites/default/files/Yeast Nutrition.pdf

Actually no. Some yeast strains are notorious in producing H2S. WLP775 is one that just came to me. Cider ferments just fine without yeast nutrients and energizer. People have the psychological need to spend money on Fermaid and Kaid and **** like that. If you really want, buy some plain DAP and add per instructions. Yeast has some basic requirements, sugars and temperature range. If those two conditions are fulfilled and let your cider age, you need nothing more. Of course, apple types are important, e.g. tannins etc, but you can compensate those along the way, by aging, backsweeting and bottle carbonation or keging.

 

[Maylar]

Actually no. Some yeast strains are notorious in producing H2S. WLP775 is one that just came to me. Cider ferments just fine without yeast nutrients and energizer. People have the psychological need to spend money on Fermaid and Kaid and **** like that. If you really want, buy some plain DAP and add per instructions. Yeast has some basic requirements, sugars and temperature range. If those two conditions are fulfilled and let your cider age, you need nothing more. Of course, apple types are important, e.g. tannins etc, but you can compensate those along the way, by aging, backsweeting and bottle carbonation or keging.

Among the "basic requirements" that yeast need are some trace elements, thiamine (vitamin B1) and nitrogen. Apples are notoriously low in nitrogen, so we supplement that with DAP or something else. Otherwise the yeast get stressed and create H2S. Whether you're OK with that or not depends on where your brew room is.

The biggest variable here is temperature. If you can ferment at the lowest temperature the yeast allows, then the consumption of available nitrogen is slowed down and no added nutrient is needed. But most home brewers can't do that, and the stench of rotten eggs in your kitchen or bedroom closet is unacceptable. A bit of DAP (or boiled yeast hulls) is cheap insurance against a stinky ferment.

 

[505-Brewer]

Whats the approx amount of DAP per say a 5 gal batch. I realize it will depend on yeast but roughly speaking. I want to try some saison and brett strains.

 

[kukubau]

You don't brew cider. You cook apples to make jam or sauce and set pectins, not cider. Avoid heat. To add nutrient I would add half the nutrient you plan on adding when the yeast begin to ferment the sugars and half of the remaining quantity when the amount of sugar has dropped by half (if your starting gravity is 1.050, then when the gravity drops to about 1.025) and the final quarter when the gravity drops to 1.015 or thereabouts. If as a brewer you are too anxious to take gravity readings throughout the fermentation then you can add all the nutrient when the fermentation has taken off but you will not get all the benefit of the staggered feeding.
But a word of caution: if you add powder to the fermenting liquid you will nucleate the CO2 that has been absorbed by the liquid. If you are fermenting in a bucket that may not be an issue but if you are fermenting in a narrow mouthed carboy you are likely to create a volcano of liquid that can eject with enough energy to paint your ceiling. Mix the nutrient in a little water or must or juice before you add it.

Cider doesn't need any staggered feeding as mead does.

 

[kukubau]

Whats the approx amount of DAP per say a 5 gal batch. I realize it will depend on yeast but roughly speaking. I want to try some saison and brett strains.

Very hard to say. Use per instructions. Yeast nutrient /energizer from Wyeast should be added 1/2 tsp.(2.5 grams) per 5 gallons, but that is for beer. While apple juice is low in nutrients (Nitrogen) I add 2 tsp. (~10 grams) per 5-6 gallons. Try to find DAP (diammonium phosphate) +thiamine,+Vit B1 mixes.

 

[Kyle05STi]

I've only made 2 batches of cider so far, but I've added 1/2 tsp of DAP per gallon of must to some boiled water, then rehydrating the champagne yeast per the directions (when the water cools to about 100* F) in the same water.

I pour it in and call it good. Both batches have had strong fermentations with only pleasant smells coming from the airlock.

 

[505-Brewer]

Cool beans. Thank you both.

 

[MindenMan]

DAP is recommended to be used at 1/2 tsp per five gallons. My concern with using 1/2 teaspoon in 1 gallon would be the smell of ammonia and raising the pH of the must too high. I use 1/8 teaspoon per 1 gallon container; I heat up 1/2 of water in the microwave and add the DAP to it while the water is hot.