Yeast didn't pitch enough ?

[Swaroga]

Hello all.

I need help.

This is the recipe I used :
hops
3kg - wheat flakes
500gr - Cara crystal
500gr - Munich
5x1,5kg liquid extra pale malt (Muntons)
and 2 bags of Belgian Saison liquid activator WYEAST

More or less 45l (about 12gal) of wort with 1,054 .

I pitched it at 72F.

After a week of fermenting it only went till 1,044. It was 1,044 several days now so it means the yeast stopped fermenting. The thing has a a strong fresh yeast smell and taste.


My question is how can I restart the fermentation ? Should I repitch ? How much ? Different yeast ? I would hate to toss it to the sink.


Any help will be highly appreciated.

 

[MrHadack]

What is the temp of the wort right now?

 

[dlaramie08]

Warm it up. That may help restart the stalled fermentation. Saison yeast does well at warmer temps. While you're warming it up, give it a good swirl as well just to rouse the yeast. Your pitch temp is fine and while many may say you under pitched, with a saison there is a lot more leeway with amount. The more stressed your yeast is, the more of that Belgian flavor you'll get.


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[Swaroga]

It's around 68F

 

[dlaramie08]

Bring it to the upper 70's and watch it bubble away.


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[Swaroga]

I did it 3 days ago : I gave it a good swirl and brought it from 63F to 68F. Should I go into more higher with the temperature ?

 

[Facinerous]

I've been reading about saison yeast lately. Planning on doing my first saison soon.

As far as the yeast is concerned higher temps will help the yeast ferment out. It seems that with many siason yeasts they will ferment really hard/fast for a few days, then slow down incredibly. The yeast will give an illusion of stuck fermentation, then one to two weeks later pick back up again.

I couldn't directly tell you if your fermentation has truly stalled. If I were in your position I would warm it up to the mid 70s if you can, then wait a week and take another measurement.

 

[Yooper]

I think the issue is the mash, if those ingredients are right. There isn't enough base malt (actually, none) to convert flaked wheat. The Munich malt can self-convert, but there wouldn't be any excess diastatic power for conversion.

 

[Swaroga]

I think the issue is the mash, if those ingredients are right. There isn't enough base malt (actually, none) to convert flaked wheat. The Munich malt can self-convert, but there wouldn't be any excess diastatic power for conversion.

I was afraid about the flaked wheat being a bit of a problem but I used 5 cans of Muntons Extra pale liquid malt. That's about 16,5lb. Shouldn't this be enough to convert ?

 

[Facinerous]

I think the issue is the mash, if those ingredients are right. There isn't enough base malt (actually, none) to convert flaked wheat. The Munich malt can self-convert, but there wouldn't be any excess diastatic power for conversion.

I was assuming the 5x1.5 kg extract was for a total of 7.5 kg. Shouldn't that be a fair amount of fermentable sugar compared to the grain bill? Even if it is not converted.

@ Swaroga. I'm pretty sure malt extract lacks any diatastic power for starch conversion purposes.

 

[Yooper]

I was afraid about the flaked wheat being a bit of a problem but I used 5 cans of Muntons Extra pale liquid malt. That's about 16,5lb. Shouldn't this be enough to convert ?

No, malt extract doesn't convert grain in the mash. The grains all go together in the mash, and the diastatic power of the base malt releases enzymes, so that grains without any ability convert (such as flaked wheat) will be able to convert their starches into sugar.

Without a proper mash, no enzymes would be activated at all and so there would be no fermentable sugars converted from the grain.

 

[dlaramie08]

Even with the unconverted wheat, I would still expect a drop of more than 10 gravity points with all of the lme.


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[Yooper]

Even with the unconverted wheat, I would still expect a drop of more than 10 gravity points with all of the lme.


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What about all the SG points due to the starch in the wort, with 3 kilograms (6.6 pounds!) of unconverted wheat?

 

[Swaroga]

I thought that the grains I used would only influence the flavor and the liquid malt would give enough sugar to convert into alkohol. So putting it simply enough : The ratio between Liquid malt and specialty grains is not good right ?

So , what would you recommend ? Add sugar ? Leave it, forget about the alcohol content and bottle it ?

 

[Yooper]

I thought that the grains I used would only influence the flavor and the liquid malt would give enough sugar to convert into alkohol. So putting it simply enough : The ratio between Liquid malt and specialty grains is not good right ?

So , what would you recommend ? Add sugar ? Leave it, forget about the alcohol content and bottle it ?

You probably have enough extract. But the issue is that with all of that unconverted starch from the grains that weren't mashed properly.

You could easily use a pound of flaked wheat, and add some base malt, to convert it in the mash, but that's a whole lot of starch when you're talking about 3 Kgs.

I hope I'm wrong, and the other posters are correct that it will ferment out due to the extract.

 

[Dynachrome]

Carefully consider:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Enzymes

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/amylase-enzyme-153538/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/amylase-enzyme-extract-385074/

 

[Swaroga]

Ok, so I will warm it a bit and wait another week.

What about if it doesn't work after a week ? It means I created a low alcohol beverage of high gravity ?

 

[Swaroga]

Carefully consider:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Enzymes

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/amylase-enzyme-153538/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/amylase-enzyme-extract-385074/

Thanks ! AE seams like a good plan.

I'll wait another week and then try out the AE.

 

[Swaroga]

I forgot to thank you all for such a quick response. I'm glad I came to this forums.

 

[dlaramie08]

What about all the SG points due to the starch in the wort, with 3 kilograms (6.6 pounds!) of unconverted wheat?

I'm not saying its gonna drop to 1.005 or anything, but it still should go further than a 10 point drop.


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[Yooper]

I'm not saying its gonna drop to 1.005 or anything, but it still should go further than a 10 point drop.


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Well, it looks like only 7.5 pounds of LME. That would give about 22 points in a 12 gallon batch. Since it dropped 10 points, that's the vast majority of the fermentables, if my thinking is correct.

The rest of the OG came from unconverted starch and unfermentable sugars.

 

[dlaramie08]

So lme is only 50-60% fermentable? Would you not expect the lme portion to ferment at an appropriate proportion as if it were the only addition? Would you not expect it to drop at least another 5-7 points? I still think there are some fermentables in there. Agreed its gonna be chewable.


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[Yooper]

So lme is only 50-60% fermentable? Would you not expect the lme portion to ferment at an appropriate proportion as if it were the only addition? Would you not expect it to drop at least another 5-7 points? I still think there are some fermentables in there. Agreed its gonna be chewable.


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I think most brands of LME are about 65-70% fermentable. Some are less, especially canned LME, and some are a bit more but I'd guess than 70% would be a limit, and of course the yeast attenuation plays a role.

 

[dlaramie08]

I think most brands of LME are about 65-70% fermentable. Some are less, especially canned LME, and some are a bit more but I'd guess than 70% would be a limit, and of course the yeast attenuation plays a role.

Well that's what I get for assuming.


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[Swaroga]

After 5 days it dropped to 1,036.

I'm thinking to treat it with amylase enzyme. What do you think ? I don't see this beer to pull off as a saison when I am at around 30 hehe

 

[Swaroga]

Ok.

So for those who might be interested. I used Alpha Amylaze. I used 25ml.

It went crazy. It dropped to 1,012 in one week time. Then it stopped around it. I guess the yeast can take only this far. It's more then I expected anyway.

Thanks for all your help.

It is a great experience.

 

[Dynachrome]

I want to know how it tastes and the mouth feel - what's the head like etc. please.