Wyeast #3787 not starting

[MTBbrewer]

I sure this has been asked before, but here we go. I brewed a Dubble on Sunday that was 1.081 and pitched the yeast when the wort was 71 degrees. I used Wyeast #3787 Trappist High Gravity. I did not make a starter I just smacked the pack 4 or 5 hours before pitching it. It was 7 months past the date on the package which states to use within 6 months. It was keep in refrigeration before use. I should have used it earlier and I should have used a starter, but sometimes life gets in the way of brewing.

I let it sit in the fermenter for 48 hours and the temp went down to 66.5 degrees with no visible activity or yeast smell. I was concerned about the wort, so I pitched the only yeast I had on hand US-05. I hydrated the US-05 before pitching. Fermentation started in 8 to 12 hours. Is it possible that the Wyeast #3787 is fermenting or just the US-05? Is there anyway to tell which one is fermenting?

 

[stpug]

I think you're correct in that the US05 is probably the dominant yeast strain at this point. Your 3787 was fairly old and pitched into a higher gravity beer, so it was probably just taking an extra long time to get going. Regardless, you will likely come out with some minor belgian esters from the 3787 but severely subdued compared to if it had been your only yeast strain.

There is no definite way of determining which strain is working right now. I know that in the past I've seen 3787 build up a huge krausen, but others have seen similar things from US05.

If it doesn't taste too belgian when all is said and done then you made yourself a dark amber ale

 

[kh54s10]

No telling which one took off, or both, One will probably dominate.

You also seriously underpitched the Wyeast. I would not have been surprised, with the old yeast and that you needed probably about 3 times (or more) as many viable cells that it did not start quickly.

At that age and gravity of brew you needed many packs or a very large starter.

 

[bbarclay]

I've used Trappist High Gravity Yeast 3 times now in stouts, and it does seem to be fickle. I've had 1 start 12 hours after, another start 48 hours after, and the other I had to (and I'm sure I'll get shamed for this) stir the cake at the bottom. When I did stir it, it went ballistic. I can't say I've kept that sort of yeast at the 66° temp you're fermenting at, but I can say I've had luck with keeping it in a warm room - 72°.

As a matter of fact, I just came on today to ask about that yeast #3787 in the secondary. A stout of mine has been siting for 4 weeks with no activity. I moved it out to assess the progress, and yesterday noticed it activated again and was bubbling my airlock.

I'm sure this wasn't much help, but you're not alone in #3787 concerns.

 

[Brew_Dude41]

Personally, I would have used a starter for that gravity regardless of the age of the yeast. That being said I bet that there were some viable cells in that smack pack and that both yeasts are working right now, but I have no idea if there is a way to tell or how that might affect the flavor in the end.
Don't feel bad, I am sitting on 2 kits (and yeast) that I wanted to brew 2 months ago, as well as a Christmas ale that has been sitting in the primary about 10 days longer than I would have liked--i hope that sitting on the yeast too long doesn't affect it.
As you said, life gets in the way sometimes.

 

[MTBbrewer]

Thanks for all the info. I assume I should just let it go and see what happens, or would it be a good idea to pitch another Wyeast #3787 in a couple of days to get the Belgium flavors? No local shops have this yeast, so I would have to order it. I can get it in two days.

 

[blizz81]

Thanks for all the info. I assume I should just let it go and see what happens, or would it be a good idea to pitch another Wyeast #3787 in a couple of days to get the Belgium flavors? No local shops have this yeast, so I would have to order it. I can get it in two days.

It will have likely missed the party by that point, and would be in competition with the S-05 anyways. At this point, let it roll.

 

[serum]

It doesn't sound like there's much you can do now but you'll know it's kicked in if it blows the lid off the fermenter.

When I used the White labs equivalent to make a starter it barely foamed at all but then when I pitched it, it was the most vigorous ferment I've ever seen.

 

[MTBbrewer]

No telling which one took off, or both, One will probably dominate.

You also seriously underpitched the Wyeast. I would not have been surprised, with the old yeast and that you needed probably about 3 times (or more) as many viable cells that it did not start quickly.

At that age and gravity of brew you needed many packs or a very large starter.

I made a bad judgment call since it was a smack pack I thought that is all it needed to start. Should I always use a yeast starter with a liquid yeast?

 

[blizz81]

I made a bad judgment call since it was a smack pack I thought that is all it needed to start. Should I always use a yeast starter with a liquid yeast?

It's good peace of mind. Maybe not a "must" in all situations - there are pitch rate calculators you can use online to give you a better feel of what's optimal (such as http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/ )

 

[kh54s10]

You will have to read up on starters and make your own mind up. There are those who think that liquid yeast is fine on it's own in any but the highest gravity brews and others who think that every time a liquid yeast is used it needs a starter.

The gravity level cutoff where you should do a starter is up for debate. Some say as low as 1.035 and others say you don't need a starter until over 1.060.

I almost always brew at 1.045 or higher so I always make a starter, even with very new yeast.

Also liquid yeast loses viability with age much faster than dry yeast. So as soon as the package is sealed at the lab, yeasts cells start dying.

It is common for new users of Wyeast to think that the inner pack works as a starter. I doesn't, it is just nutrient to energize the yeast and "proof" the pack. If it swells it tells you that the yeast are alive and producing some co2 as they ferment the small amount of nutrient.

 

[MTBbrewer]

It's good peace of mind. Maybe not a "must" in all situations - there are pitch rate calculators you can use online to give you a better feel of what's optimal (such as http://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/ )

Holy Crap I was way under what I needed. I have been brewing for a while but never tried to brew anything this high in OG. I did brew a Tripple (OG 1.072) a while back with this same yeast and it took a while to start, but I was still way under what I needed.

I have always been afraid that I would start the Starter to soon and it would run out of sugar before I was able to use it. How long will a starter last before you have to pitch it in the wort?

 

[kh54s10]

If you make a starter of the proper size and cannot use it when ready, between 18 hours and 3 days depending on agitation method, you can refrigerate for a couple of weeks. If you go longer a small additional starter will get you back to what you need.

 

[blizz81]

I have always been afraid that I would start the Starter to soon and it would run out of sugar before I was able to use it. How long will a starter last before you have to pitch it in the wort?

It's not really a matter of there being sugar to work on - it's fine if the yeast has made it through the starter. It that it gets to be more of a sterilization issue I believe - giving wild yeast and other stuff a window to do their job once your yeast has calmed down and settled out. You can (and would maybe want to anyways) cold crash it in the fridge once it has settled down some to help avoid this - also compacting the yeast cake and making it easier to decant the starter liquid off the top. Just let it warm up a bit before pitching to minimize shock. I think the window is pretty lengthy though - it's just baby beer, not much different than aging a beer (not strong / not hopped).