Word of warning : Don't Leave Full CO2 Tanks in Hot Car!

[Free_Eagle]

Figured I could shed some light on the scenario seeing I deliver these tanks for a living. First propane does not expand at an exorbitant rate like most gases when going from a liquid to a gas state. Yet propane still offers an explosion risk, our plant in PA had a 100lb. tank let go on them and set off a chain reaction of cylinder explosions due to fire which let to tanks being found up to a 3/4 mile away. The real risk is leaks which increased outside temperatures can create on a tank that normal at room temperature.

CO2 expands at an unbelievable rate, and due to the fact that it is packaged as a liquid in the cylinder it has plenty of fuel for expansion on an extremely hot day. Yet, my guess would be the tank and subsequent safety was nearing test date or out of date because a temperature of 100 degrees rarely (but obviously will) create a rupture disc to fail. Our tanks are stored in storage container's in the middle of the yard and never fail, granted the northeast is not known for its balmy temps but still.

Transportation is always recommended for a non-passenger compartment of the vehicle. Even I won't travel with it in the cab of my personal truck and I consider CO2 mundane after dealing with the assorted, more dangerous gas I deal with all day. This far into this I feel like I have wasted too much time yammering on about a mundane topic to begin with, sorry.

Side note on Nitrous. Those tanks are made to handle the temperature extremes of being in a vehicle. You can check the maximum temperature of any tank you own, excluding propane, acetylene, etc.. Look for a DOT number, and in that vicinity there should be a four digit number, normally around 2500 - 2750, that is the maximum pressure the tank is rated for when built.

 

[NitrouStang96]

Side note on Nitrous. Those tanks are made to handle the temperature extremes of being in a vehicle.

Indeed, and maybe the CO2 tanks we have are not. I just want to reiterate that all tanks can be very easily kept well within reasonable limits with a simple wet towel. Worry-free. If you're afraid you might have to leave your tank in your car on a hot day, just bring a towel and some water and you're good to go.

 

[Philip1993]

Speaking of certifications, I got a condemed oxy cylinder for a project and it was stamped with dates from 1941 -> 1992. They were also marked US Navy. Do they REALLY keep tanks in service for 50+ years?

Anyway, I thought it was cool to have a tank that was probably used to help defeat the axis in WWII..

 

[Free_Eagle]

We have tanks that have test date stamps back to the 1880's. If it continually passes hydro testing it will continue to be put into use. The US Navy tanks are among the oldest tanks out there, the typical "birthdate" of most of the tanks out there now range from 1940 - 1960, with the exception of most of the aluminum CO2 cyl's most of you have.

I have an interesting fact to your WWII reference. The company that owned my location prior was Linde Gas, which was the number one worldwide supplier for a long time till recently. Their production facility for the tanks themselves was in Germany during Hitlers' rein which required Linde to stamp every tank with the Swastika. To this day, as my buddy found one just two weeks ago, you can still locate some tanks that have not been edited to delete the Swastika. If you ever get a tank that has a box with four little boxes next to some of the older stamp dates, that tank was stamped with a Swastika which means it made its way Hilter controlled areas during that time.

I am such a gas nerd.

 

[conpewter]

1880's? That is so cool. I like my aluminum tank and all, but that is pretty neat.

 

[Free_Eagle]

Original stamp date of Feb. 1919, oldest I could find in the past week or so.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Thanks FREE EAGLE for your replies, straight from someone who knows about cylinders. I have some old ones from an old time iron worker, one with the boxed Swastika added and it passes hydro with ease as well my 1952 scuba tank. Scuba tank I keep stored at app 2-300 psi, was told the steel is like a rubber band and is relaxed and the steel will stay more elastic. True I haven't a clue but told from a long time bottle delivery driver. On the Co2 if it released in the car even when secured in the back seat the Co2 buildup would make your body stop breathing just like someone knocked the wind out of you. The trigger system in you throat would cause this, I know as we used to have Co2 bottle fights. Yes stupid when young around aircraft in the early 70's. Best part was the Navy always had emptied Co2 bottles once a month, we would release a few into cardboard boxes to quick chill a couple 6-packs. This during Nam as a civilian A&P helping the Navy. They never could figure why the bottles ended up empty once a month.

Just after the last holiday I met a Blue Rino propane delivery driver, he said his yards in the California central valley and has filled tanks sitting for weeks in the sun without any problems and we're talking 108*F last week alone.

Made me laugh on the reply about transporting a Co2 bottle on the motorcycle, JATO comes to mind?

I have seen 260/280 cu/ft sized bottles that had their tops cut off before the neck taper then inverted and made into deep sounding gongs in those fancy big buck nature stores. With 2" square tube, short chain and a leather covered stick full of sand all with that rusty natural look for $975. I think I found a use for a couple of "no one owns bottles" I have laying around, job for Mr. plasma cutter.
They're safe old helium bottles.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Easy solution, guys:

I have a 15lb nitrous tank in my trunk 24/7. It's been in there for 8 years. In the middle of summer in South Carolina in months of 100 degree days, I kept a beach towel and a small container of water in the trunk. A soaked towel draped over the top is all that is needed to keep the bottle at normal temps, but if you're really scared (or in my case, need to cool the bottle fast), a little ice water is a quick trick.

When a car is parked outside in the hot sun all day long on a 100+ degree day... I have no idea how hot it must get in the car, but my bottle stayed in usable temps, so it was no where near blowing the safety valve.

That's not the so called "party gas" as it has an additive that will make you sick. My dentist has had many bottle of the "good gas" stolen from their little locked up outside shed next to the building. No i'm not a user.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Easy solution, guys:

I have a 15lb nitrous tank in my trunk 24/7. It's been in there for 8 years. In the middle of summer in South Carolina in months of 100 degree days, I kept a beach towel and a small container of water in the trunk. A soaked towel draped over the top is all that is needed to keep the bottle at normal temps, but if you're really scared (or in my case, need to cool the bottle fast), a little ice water is a quick trick.

When a car is parked outside in the hot sun all day long on a 100+ degree day... I have no idea how hot it must get in the car, but my bottle stayed in usable temps, so it was no where near blowing the safety valve.

That's not the so called "party gas" the one used for vehicle motors as it has an additive that will make you sick. My dentist has had many bottle of the "good gas" stolen from their little locked up outside shed next to the building. No i'm not a user.

 

[Philip1993]

I have seen 260/280 cu/ft sized bottles that had their tops cut off before the neck taper then inverted and made into deep sounding gongs in those fancy big buck nature stores. With 2" square tube, short chain and a leather covered stick full of sand all with that rusty natural look for $975.

I'm in the wrong business. I just made 4 of those for our HS band and the total cost was about $250 including paint, mallet, and an A frame stand

 

[MrGoblin]

Ho... just to add up...

For those who lives in a colder area...
Dont leave 2 full keg with and CO2 in a freezing garage!
-2F or -19C is never good for beer or the Refrigerator they're in !
Lost a couple of glasses of beer and had to clean up the mess.

Thanks for all the advices, I've learned a lot reading on this board.

 

[G-E-R-M-A-N]

Check out what happened to a guy on my car forum that had a nitrous bottle blow up. If you have a safety valve malfunction it can kill you. This is the same as a co2 bottle in size. The black part is the bottle shredded apart. This car was in mint condition before.

 

[Aleforge]

Holy crap, Is the guy ok?

 

[jspence1]

Having a bottle explode like that is almost impossible. Based on what I see there the tank was modified to hold more pressure that it was designed for, done by doubling up the burst disks, great if you want to sneak a few extra psi in a tank, not so great for living to tell the story. The moral of this story is don't be stupid tanks/burst disks are rated for your protection don't mess with them.

 

[caver95]

So then you are say I should not fill my tanks that are rated to 2640 to 3600 or more? its standard practice in Cave diving. But thats steel tanks, not AL. I will find out how bad it is for them a few are up for hydro this year. I was using a Haskel pump the other day to boost O2, I got a little freaked out the supply after the pump got really hot, I have had friends that have had explosions from boosting o2. and I transfer SLOOOOOW too.

 

[jspence1]

So then you are say I should not fill my tanks that are rated to 2640 to 3600 or more? its standard practice in Cave diving. But thats steel tanks, not AL. I will find out how bad it is for them a few are up for hydro this year. I was using a Haskel pump the other day to boost O2, I got a little freaked out the supply after the pump got really hot, I have had friends that have had explosions from boosting o2. and I transfer SLOOOOOW too.

like I said unless the tanks were modified they will not explode. I've been know to fill my steel 90's to 3200 as well....how else would I know how it was done We know that tanks are hydro tested to 5/3 their working pressure 4400 PSI for steel. The difference between you and most people is you have knowledge of what you are doing. I'm willing to bet you don't overfill your tanks and put them in a car in the hot sun.

 

[caver95]

like I said unless the tanks were modified they will not explode. I've been know to fill my steel 90's to 3200 as well....how else would I know how it was done We know that tanks are hydro tested to 5/3 their working pressure 4400 PSI for steel. The difference between you and most people is you have knowledge of what you are doing. I'm willing to bet you don't overfill your tanks and put them in a car in the hot sun.

Of course not, the go in the back of my truck....

 

[Mustangfreak]

Check out what happened to a guy on my car forum that had a nitrous bottle blow up. If you have a safety valve malfunction it can kill you. This is the same as a co2 bottle in size. The black part is the bottle shredded apart. This car was in mint condition before.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/supacharged21/bradspics032.jpg[/IG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v645/supacharged21/bradspics0302.jpg[/IG][/QUOTE]


Yeah, I saw those pics some time way back, don't remember where I saw them though.


It's crazy what 2000 psi will do when iit's unleashed with no regard.

 

[BierMuncher]

Check out what happened to a guy on my car forum that had a nitrous bottle blow up.

So when something like that happens...you know...a nitrous bottle exploding. Is it just a little bit funny???...cuz...you know...it's laughing gas after all.

I'm just wondering. You know...was there any sort of upside here?

 

[McKBrew]

I'm guessing that the car owner wasn't chuckling. That car is ****ed up.

Maybe the rest of us can laugh....

 

[G-E-R-M-A-N]

The guy is ok,and was not in the car at the time. He was inside I believe, and said it sounded crazy.

 

[bull8042]

Can you imagine the reaction of the 70 year old bitty carrying her poodle and pushing her groceries by this thing when it went off?!?!

 

[IrregularPulse]

I'd like to thank we would all just KNOW not to do this but it is appearent that it is not common knowledge and I agree on a Summer Safety Bulletin Sticky.

I'd hate to see anyone on this forum getting hurt especially from something very easily preventable.

 

[drayman86]

PV=nRT
live and learn.

or......

P1V1/T1 = P2V2/T2


(I love chemistry. )

 

[BarryNL]

or......

P1V1/T1 = P2V2/T2

The thing is, this doesn't apply with CO2 tanks because the CO2 liquifies under pressure. If the CO2 was obeying ideal gas laws then a typical 2.6 litre cylinder containing 2 kg of CO2 would be under around 770 bar or 11,000psi of pressure. Far more than those things could stand. But, as the CO2 liquifies they are only under around 50bar/750psi of pressure at room temperature. However, as the CO2 heats it fairly quickly tries to turn back to gas and the pressure in the cylinder ramps up far more quickly than ideal gas laws would suggest. Luckily the safety burst should take care of the problem...

 

[Nova5]

CO2 tanks are fun when that burst disk goes. Very entertaining at paintball games in the winter. My brother had just filled a 12oz tank and put it in his vest. about 10 minutes later while discussing the scenario we were about to play the tank blew the burst disk... and the open end was aimed upward... right at his head. Nice white jet enveloped his face for a second till he got clear of the jet and let it vent out.


So even WINTER times are times to worry about CO2 tanks. CO2 expands when warm, so colder temps keep it from expanding as much as it would under normal conditions.

 

[mordantly]

Easy solution, guys:

I have a 15lb nitrous tank in my trunk 24/7. It's been in there for 8 years. In the middle of summer in South Carolina in months of 100 degree days, I kept a beach towel and a small container of water in the trunk. A soaked towel draped over the top is all that is needed to keep the bottle at normal temps, but if you're really scared (or in my case, need to cool the bottle fast), a little ice water is a quick trick.

When a car is parked outside in the hot sun all day long on a 100+ degree day... I have no idea how hot it must get in the car, but my bottle stayed in usable temps, so it was no where near blowing the safety valve.

hmmmm. arround here, people use heaters when its not 90+ summer temps. so as to keep the tank pressure curve shallow.

i transport 20# co2 in my back seat or pass seat hole all the time. only one car has a trunk and all 3 of my catalina alumnis are under 2 years old so i dont want them gettin all beat to ****. dumb if they blow... YES! and you get to suffocate if the winder aint down. not that you wouldnt hear 1500 psi gettin purged.

 

[frostyone]

I would think that it's safer strapped in the passenger compartment. If you put it in the trunk and it's rolling around, there's a chance the valve can get damaged. And if it does, that thing will be a missile.

You can pick up thread savers. It's just a metal piece with female thread that screws over the top to keep such damage from occurring. As far as my experience with burst disks, it can more easily than you would think. I had a 24oz tank for paintball in the back of my truck in a black bag in the middle of summer on the way to a paintball match. You wouldn't believe how big that converse duffel got after the burst disk blew. In retrospect, I guess it was pretty funny, but I also had some back-up tanks for the game. Otherwise, I guess I would have had to use my slingshot the whole time (which I have gotten kills with, lol).

 

[JKoravos]

The thing is, this doesn't apply with CO2 tanks because the CO2 liquifies under pressure. If the CO2 was obeying ideal gas laws then a typical 2.6 litre cylinder containing 2 kg of CO2 would be under around 770 bar or 11,000psi of pressure. Far more than those things could stand. But, as the CO2 liquifies they are only under around 50bar/750psi of pressure at room temperature. However, as the CO2 heats it fairly quickly tries to turn back to gas and the pressure in the cylinder ramps up far more quickly than ideal gas laws would suggest. Luckily the safety burst should take care of the problem...

You beat me to it...

CO2 and Propane tank pressure has nothing to do with the ideal gas law, it has to do with liquid-gas equilibrium. It's like a pressure cooker, except a pressure cooker is generally set to max out at 15 psig, the burst disk in a CO2 tank is set at ~1800psig. Just like you can tell the pressure in a pressure cooker based on the temperature of the liquid, you can determine the pressure in a CO2 or propane tank based on the temperature of the liquid.

I can't find it online right now, but a CO2 saturation table will tell you exactly how hot the cylinder has to be to reach 1800 psig.

 

[limulus]

I have just started to get back into brewing after being away since the early 90s. This is my CO2 cylinder story:

I had a 2.5lb CO2 cylinder filled for use in our basement bar. I always placed it in the back wedged under my seat so it would not be rolling around and that's where it was on that day. I was going to pick up my young daughter and then go home. I noticed that the cylinder would hiss every minute or so which I had never heard before. After probably half an hour of this, the pressure valve blew. The entire car fogged and I managed to get into the center turning lane and get the door open. I was standing in the center turn lane gasping for air with fog pouring from my car. If my daughter had been in the car, things could have been worse. I took the cylinder back to the shop that filled it and the guy realized he put 5lbs into that 2.5lb cylinder. I managed to get a free refill out of the deal, some safety glasses and something else I can't recall. From then on, I used a bungee cord in the trunk.