Witbier with Saison yeast

[DrummerBoySeth]

I am trying to come up with a refreshing summer beer to brew next. I am a big fan of the Witbier style. Since I am still an extract brewer, I am accustomed to many of my recipes having an FG in the range of 1.020, but I wanted to create a brew with a dryer finish for hot summer days. My solution to the high FG issue was to substitute Saison yeast with a higher attenuation to lower the FG to a more reasonable summer-drinking level. Here is my idea for this recipe... Let me know what you all think.

My real question is this... How much will the Saison yeast affect the overall character of the beer? I am not sure about the technical differences between Saison and Witbier from a recipe perspective. I do know that Saisons are usually slightly darker and hoppier than Wits, but I have never seen a Saison recipe, so I am not sure what the real differences in terms of grain bill and hopping rates are. I also like the fact that the Saison yeast seems to be VERY tolerant of summer brewing temperatures. Will Saison yeast complement a wheat-heavy recipe like this, or should I look for another option, like a Hefe yeast, or maybe even a Trappist ale yeast?

 

[Nateo]

"Saison" and "Wit" were words invented by humans to describe certain beers with overlapping similarities. The yeast doesn't care what it ferments. My preferred witbier and saison yeast are actually the same yeast, so I say go for it and decide for yourself if you like it.

The thing you need to know about Belgian brewers is that they brew to taste, not to style. Strict style guidelines and consistently identical products are something Americans are into.

 

[DrummerBoySeth]

The thing you need to know about Belgian brewers is that they brew to taste, not to style.

That is actually exactly what I am trying to do. The yeast substitution was driven by a desire to get an extract brew down to a lower FG. If there is not a huge difference between Saison yeast and Wit yeast, then this might actually work. Any thoughts on the recipe itself? I have seen other Wit recipes which call for 0.5 ounces of orange peel. I was hoping that the additional orange peel combined with the dryer finish would make a really tasty summer brew.

 

[DannPM]

"Saison" and "Wit" were words invented by humans to describe certain beers with overlapping similarities. The yeast doesn't care what it ferments. My preferred witbier and saison yeast are actually the same yeast, so I say go for it and decide for yourself if you like it.

The thing you need to know about Belgian brewers is that they brew to taste, not to style. Strict style guidelines and consistently identical products are something Americans are into.

Words to f*ckin' live by.

 

[ploppythesausage]

If you are looking to get a lower FG apparently the French Saison Yeast 3711 is an absolute beast - not used it myself yet but reports seem to indicate that 3724 takes yonks to finish up while the 3711 will chew through anything.

 

[sfrisby]

3 brews with 3711 over last 2 months. Highest FG was 1.008.

 

[Nateo]

Perceived dryness is a lot more complicated than just a low FG. 3711 at 1.006 seems less dry to me than T-58 at 1.010. While I'm not familiar with all the chemistry behind it, I believe it's related to glycerol production.

 

[MVKTR2]

I too am contemplating doing this exact same thing, using the same yeast for a saison and witbier.

Apparently I'm coming at it from the opposite end of you guys, using a wit yeast. Suggestions please, as I'm lost when it comes to these yeasts, between:
3942 Belgian Wheat
3944 Belgian Witbier
3725 Bier de Garde (private selection release of Fantome yeast which I hear has lacto in it which I don't care for)

or should I just stick to 3711 and ferment it at higher temps to get more phenols when making the wit?

 

[DrummerBoySeth]

If you are looking to get a lower FG apparently the French Saison Yeast 3711 is an absolute beast - not used it myself yet but reports seem to indicate that 3724 takes yonks to finish up while the 3711 will chew through anything.

Thanks for the advice. That yeast has an even higher attenuation than the 3724. I had also read that the 3724 likes to get "stuck" at 1.030 or so and stay there for a while before finishing. I had resolved to let it sit in primary for a month or more if it took that long, but I may not have to do that with this strain. That would be good, since the drinkable beer in my storage closet is getting low... (I do have a really big RIS bottle conditioning right now, but I am saving that for this fall!) and this will help re-fill the stock with a nice, refreshing summer brew!

 

[dwarven_stout]

I too am contemplating doing this exact same thing, using the same yeast for a saison and witbier.

Apparently I'm coming at it from the opposite end of you guys, using a wit yeast. Suggestions please, as I'm lost when it comes to these yeasts, between:
3942 Belgian Wheat
3944 Belgian Witbier
3725 Bier de Garde (private selection release of Fantome yeast which I hear has lacto in it which I don't care for)

or should I just stick to 3711 and ferment it at higher temps to get more phenols when making the wit?

Haven't used 3942. 3944 is a monster that will need a blowoff tube. That yeast will give you the classic witbier flavor and aroma with spicy phenols and a touch of bubblegum. 3725 does not have lacto in it- it's the pure strain that Fantome uses before adding other buggy sorts. It will ferment pretty clean and a little spicy.

If I were picking one yeast to do wits and saisons with, I would go with 3711, 3463 (Forbidden Fruit) or 3522 (Belgian Ardennes).

 

[Nateo]

3463 is a nice yeast. Not very popular though. Not sure why people gravitate to some yeasts over others.

 

[MVKTR2]

Thanks Dwarven Stout. Between this thread and your comments I'm rethinking coming at it from the witbier side. Perhaps 3711 or one of the others listed would be more easily handled for manufacturing both styles successfully. That's the key, doing it successfully. I'd rather buy two yeasts than have an inferior bier! However I'm a big fan of both common sense frugality and experimentation. There's a reason many breweries house yeast is a british type they can over pitch with VERY clean results or stress to induce fruitier/woodier results. I love multipurposing yeasts, how many of us use Notty as a go-to for American APAs, IPAs, etc.

Anyone have thoughts on which yeast would be easiest/best to coax wit phenols from; 3711, 3463, or 3522?

Btw Saison and Wits seem to be perfect candidates for a sour mash treatment!

 

[DannPM]

If you want phenols I'd go 3522

 

[MVKTR2]

Dann, I'm familiar with under pitching Belgian yeasts to coax more phenols and brewing on the lower end of the yeast's temp range to coax spice then allowing the temp to rise and ferment out. I know we're having a conversation at this point to discuss the qualities of yeast x vs y, I'm okay with that. Anyway my question is how will 3522 do at producing a saison. Would it produce a spicier less phenolic finish ie saison like with a robust starter and lower end fermentation vs stressing the yeast a bit for a phenolic wit or belgian finish?

I ask that question as it seems it might be easier to stress 3711 into producing phenolic notes by under pitching and ramping it up temp wise right away for the wit? Or is that a wrong assertion based on others experience with 3711 and/or 3522?

 

[Axelvilhelm]

Sorry for hijacking this ancient thread. I was searching the web for results on fermenting wit with saison yeast, and came over this one. Just pitched a pack of Danstar Belle Saison (some say it's practically a dry equivalent to Wyeast 3711). Can't wait to taste the result!

Anyone else that used saison yeast to ferment a wit? How did it turn out?

 

[Jonkl]

My go-to spring beer is a wit base fermented with a saison yeast. I bug it up with some Brett c instead of using orange peel, but that's optional.

My last batch used 3711, and finished down at 1.001 (not much for the bugs to chew on there). I found that serving temp and conditioning affected the character - it tended to bounce between saison and wit ester characteristics.

The 3711 + Brett combo didn't pull it grossly out of style, though; it earned a medal as a witbier in the local competition.

 

[Axelvilhelm]

My go-to spring beer is a wit base fermented with a saison yeast. I bug it up with some Brett c instead of using orange peel, but that's optional.

My last batch used 3711, and finished down at 1.001 (not much for the bugs to chew on there). I found that serving temp and conditioning affected the character - it tended to bounce between saison and wit ester characteristics.

The 3711 + Brett combo didn't pull it grossly out of style, though; it earned a medal as a witbier in the local competition.

Congratulations for the medal, it sure must have been a tasty brew! How long do you keep it in the fermentor before bottling/kegging, and do you use secondary fermentation? Somehow I assume this is quite a fast beer, since you don't want it to clear up too much prior to bottling.

 

[Jonkl]

My last batch went from kettle to bottle in 21 days, and I took my time with it. You can definitely turn it quicker, especially if you don't use the Brett.

 

[castillo556]

Cigar City Brewing makes a wit with french saison yeast.. it's delicous!