Will this be an allright Porter?

[Erik the Anglophile]

Tried getting some critique on two recipes i'm gonna brew but didn't really get any response so i'm gonna try again with only one recipe...

Porter 8 liter batch
Malt:
1.8kg Maris Otter 81%
220g Crystal 400 10%
130 Low colcour chocalate malt 6%
70g Black Malt 3%

Hops:
7.5g Challenger 60 min
5g Bramling Cross 60 min

mashing at 67C for 75 mins and boiling for 90 mins

est OG 1064
est FG 1017
abv 6.2%
IBU ~30

I am using m15 empire ale yeast and have heard that it can be prone to stalling, what should one do if that happens?
Also wondering about the fermentation temp, when I make this beer I will have acces to temperature controlled fermentation, should i ferment at 20C(68F) or go lower to about 18(64.5F)? Since I heard it is prone to produce a lot of esters at higher temps and gravities.

 

[Miraculix]

Mash long and low. You won't get much answers if you don't provide the rebuild directly in the thread in written form.

 

[McKnuckle]

I think you have too much very dark malt, thanks to a strange crystal malt that seems to be coming in at 460 EBC (~230 Lovibond). That's too much really dark grain for the recipe, in my opinion. Notice that the final EBC of the beer is coming in at 87.3 (~43 SRM)!

If you're going to use the 9% roasted malts (patent + choc), which are not a problem by themselves, the crystal needs to be in a much lower range, something like 80-150 EBC (40-75L), in order to retain some caramel sweetness and balance the flavors.

Also, I can't imagine you should be adding any lactic acid to this. The roasted grains should be driving the mash pH down quite a bit, and 5.25 is too low for a very dark beer. If anything, you'll probably need baking soda to raise pH after adding CaCl and/or gypsum to achieve enough Ca in the mash. Target more like 5.4-5.5 in your mash.

 

[tracer bullet]

It looks OK, it should be porter-ish. The yeast and hops aren't classical but at a glance their descriptions via google seem appropriate. You aren't missing anything huge that would result in a yucky beer.

I'd consider a late hops addition as well if you have a little extra. My last porter, from a recipe here, called for whirlpooling Kent Goldings. I'd have never thought of that for a porter, but it turned out great.

 

[tracer bullet]

Good call above on the water, I didn't pay attention to that. Sorry.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I think you have too much very dark malt, thanks to a strange crystal malt that seems to be coming in at 460 EBC (~230 Lovibond). That's too much really dark grain for the recipe, in my opinion. Notice that the final EBC of the beer is coming in at 87.3 (~43 SRM)!

If you're going to use the 9% roasted malts (patent + choc), which are not a problem by themselves, the crystal needs to be in a much lower range, something like 80-150 EBC (40-75L), in order to retain some caramel sweetness and balance the flavors.

Also, I can't imagine you should be adding any lactic acid to this. The roasted grains should be driving the mash pH down quite a bit, and 5.25 is too low for a very dark beer. If anything, you'll probably need baking soda to raise pH after adding CaCl and/or gypsum to achieve enough Ca in the mash. Target more like 5.4-5.5 in your mash.

The water additives is something beersmith made up itself, I don't do any water treatment since we have such good/clean tapwater in Sweden.
About the color the thing is, according to English and Swedish style standards, EBC up to 100 is totally fine for a Porter, especially a heavier one so I assumed the color would be no problem.
But i might change the crystal to crystal 150 instead.
What do you think about the fermentation? should i aim for 20c or go a bit lower? I want a sweetish porter with some esters but not cloyingly so...

 

[McKnuckle]

It's not so much the color - I was just citing that as indication that it's very dark - it's the proportion of very dark malts, 19%, with nothing to balance them. Here's an example of a porter I have going right now, which has a smooth chocolatey taste:

73.5% pale ale
12% crystal 150L
7% brown malt 65L
4.5% treacle
3% pale chocolate 200L

(Overall color is about 31 SRM)

So the roasted malts total 10%, similar to your grain bill, but they are not nearly as dark, whereas you have very dark black patent and 300L chocolate at a similar total percentage. That will make a big flavor difference, and I think it would be better if balanced by a sweeter caramel malt. I can get away with my crystal 150 because the roasted malts are not so intense.

I don't have experience with the yeast you are using, sorry! Maybe someone else will chime in.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

It's not so much the color - I was just citing that as indication that it's very dark - it's the proportion of very dark malts, 19%, with nothing to balance them. Here's an example of a porter I have going right now, which has a smooth chocolatey taste:

73.5% pale ale
12% crystal 150L
7% brown malt 65L
4.5% treacle
3% pale chocolate 200L

(Overall color is about 31 SRM)

So the roasted malts total 10%, similar to your grain bill, but they are not nearly as dark, whereas you have very dark black patent and 300L chocolate at a similar total percentage. That will make a big flavor difference, and I think it would be better if balanced by a sweeter caramel malt. I can get away with my crystal 150 because the roasted malts are not so intense.

I don't have experience with the yeast you are using, sorry! Maybe someone else will chime in.

When i said i might switch crystal 150 i meant the english variant wich is probably similair to american crystal 40 or 60l. But i think i will try with the darker crystal since i dont mind darkness(tastewise) in these kinds of beers and try with the lighter if it turns out a bit too dark. Thanks for the tips!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I switched one of the bittering hops(challenger) to Fuggles and adjusted the amount to the same bitterness, let's see how this turns out. Cheers!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Don't worry about the Bramling Cross, it's normally great in dark beers, but some of the recent vintages like 2018 have been a bit weird thanks to heatwaves, it ends up going more Goldings-y (not a bad thing!) rather than the usual blackcurrant.

If you're wanting to do a British porter, then the defining ingredient is brown malt - for instance the Fuller's porter (which is as much a benchmark as anything) is 14% medium crystal
10% brown malt
1.5% chocolate malt

It's a classic mistake to try and add darker flavour ingredients to hit the colour of British styles, when historically British brewers always brewed something paler and then adjusted the colour with brewer's caramel (not caramel malt!) for consistency. British beers are all about balance, and trying to hit unrealistic colour targets always screws up the balance.

Try to find some brown malt if you can.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Don't worry about the Bramling Cross, it's normally great in dark beers, but some of the recent vintages like 2018 have been a bit weird thanks to heatwaves, it ends up going more Goldings-y (not a bad thing!) rather than the usual blackcurrant.

If you're wanting to do a British porter, then the defining ingredient is brown malt - for instance the Fuller's porter (which is as much a benchmark as anything) is 14% medium crystal
10% brown malt
1.5% chocolate malt

It's a classic mistake to try and add darker flavour ingredients to hit the colour of British styles, when historically British brewers always brewed something paler and then adjusted the colour with brewer's caramel (not caramel malt!) for consistency. British beers are all about balance, and trying to hit unrealistic colour targets always screws up the balance.

Try to find some brown malt if you can.

I'll keep the bramlings, just switched the main hops to Fuggle instead of Challanger.
Hmm, I have some brown malt at home.
The thing is I actually enjoy porters that have som "hardness" to them, and that was my thought with this, to make a bit stronger and bigger, bolder porter.
You know what, I will probably brew one as it is and one where I change the grain bill to make it a bit softer but the same strenght and see wich one I prefer the most.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I don't think that most people would regard adding brown malt as making a beer "softer"!

 

[McKnuckle]

The grain bill I quoted above was actually inspired by the posted Fuller's porter recipe. It gets a little color depth from black treacle. But it's otherwise just pale, dark crystal, brown, and chocolate.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I don't think that most people would regard adding brown malt as making a beer "softer"!

Man, this is hard some styleguides say using small amounts of black malt or other roasted grain together with dark malts is ok, others say stay away. You think this will result in a overly harsh porter or could i try brewing it and tweak the recipe later by switching black with brown malt or changing to a lighter crystal malt if i'm not fully satisfied? As said i don't mind if the malt character is a bit "hard"

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Black malt is irrelevant, you should only be adding it in small amounts for colour.

If you don't mind "hard", then it sounds like you should like a porter with brown malt. But the taste of brown malt is not just about "hard" versus "soft", it just adds "porter-ness". Or at least London porter/stout-ness.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I switched the dark crystal to light crystal(150 ebc), will brew this batch with low colour chocolate and then brew one with brown malt and see wich one I like the most.
Thanks for all the input and you will probably get more retarded questions from this noob in the future

 

[kevin58]

All of my porters are pale malt, a good amount of brown malt (15% or more) and just a bit of black malt. I've found no need to add much of anything else.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I got black malt, I got brown malt
I got base malt
Who could ask for anything more?

 

[InspectorJon]

I don't do any water treatment since we have such good/clean tapwater in Sweden. I want a sweetish porter with some esters but not cloyingly

He's from Sweden and wants a . . . sweetish porter. I couldn't resist.