Will off-flavors improve or get worse with time?

[FatDaddy64]

I brewed my first whole-grain batch about 10 weeks ago and made the rookie mistake of pitching my yeast while the wort was still somewhat warm (about 85 deg F). I was using an immersion chiller but only had warm summer hose-water for cooling, and I couldn't seem to get the temperature down below this point, even after 90 minutes of chilling. So, I pitched. The fermentation was fairly vigorous, and was complete in about 48 hours. I let the beer sit in the fermenter for 3 weeks then bottled. The fermenter and bottles sit in my basement, which is about 65 deg F.

I started tasting the beer weekly after bottling, and was surprised the beer actually tasted pretty decent, but not great. Now, however, I'm really not loving the beer. It has a fairly distinct chemical/medicinal taste that seems to get worse with age.

My question is, should I expect this off-flavor to continue getting worse, or will long bottle conditioning perhaps lead to an improvement with time?

I've since bottled two other batches, both of which taste wonderful (a nutty, biscuit-tasting pale ale and a nice smooth porter), and I have little desire to continue drinking the first batch, which is lame in comparison. I also don't really want to give bottles of the first batch away to friends (they might think that's representative of my brewing skills rather than a rookie mistake), and I hate the thought of pouring my remaining 20 bottles down the drain. But I'm not too keen on drinking those 20 bottles either. What would you do with them?

By the way, I now have an aquarium immersion pump that I use to circulate ice water through my chiller, which gets my wort temp down to 65 deg F pretty quickly. I did my fourth batch yesterday (a pumpkin ale) and cooled the wort to 65 deg F in a quick 25 minutes!

 

[billl]

Some off flavors improve with age. Others stay the same. Others get worse. It really depends on what is causing the off flavor.

If your off flavor is getting worse, the only thing to do is to drink faster or dump them.

 

[butterpants]

Someone chime in and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe pitching a little too warm is going to create band-aid tasting beer.

Are you using bleach to sanatize? Hot water rinse multiple times after san?

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

A chemical medicinal flavor most likely would come from one of two places. Your water has chlorine/chloramine in it that needs to be removed, or you have a wild yeast present causing the flavor. Either way it will not get better with age and your best option is to dump it and take a look at your process in order to eliminate the cause. Considering you wrote that it took 90 minutes to chill, I would suspect a wild yeast contamination, especially if the lid was off your kettle that whole time.

 

[brew_ny]

I hate the thought of pouring my remaining 20 bottles down the drain. But I'm not too keen on drinking those 20 bottles either. What would you do with them?

mix them with something else and drink them

S_M

 

[FatDaddy64]

Someone chime in and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't believe pitching a little too warm is going to create band-aid tasting beer.

Are you using bleach to sanatize? Hot water rinse multiple times after san?

No, I use StarSan to sanitize. And I carbon-filter my tap water before use. My next two batches tasted great, and the only real difference in my technique was pitching the yeast at a cooler temperature.

Maybe I'm not describing the off-flavor correctly. It is somewhat harsh, slick, leaves an unpleasant aftertaste. To me it tastes "chemically" (and I'm a former chemist, so I'm pretty sensitive to chemical tastes and smells).

 

[butterpants]

No, I use StarSan to sanitize. And I carbon-filter my tap water before use. My next two batches tasted great, and the only real difference in my technique was pitching the yeast at a cooler temperature.

Maybe I'm not describing the off-flavor correctly. It is somewhat harsh, slick, leaves an unpleasant aftertaste. To me it tastes "chemically" (and I'm a former chemist, so I'm pretty sensitive to chemical tastes and smells).

I'm not sure... most IPA's taste that way to me

Take a bottle to your LHBS or enter it in a contest and see what they say.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

No, I use StarSan to sanitize. And I carbon-filter my tap water before use. My next two batches tasted great, and the only real difference in my technique was pitching the yeast at a cooler temperature.

Maybe I'm not describing the off-flavor correctly. It is somewhat harsh, slick, leaves an unpleasant aftertaste. To me it tastes "chemically" (and I'm a former chemist, so I'm pretty sensitive to chemical tastes and smells).

It is possible that it could be some kind of phenol that the yeast threw off at that temp.

I still suspect wild yeast, especially if you were chilling with the lid off.

 

[billl]

If it is getting worse with time, then either

1) You looking for that flavor each time, so it seems to be more evident with each bottle. That is kinda a curse of knowing a flaw is present.

2) It really is getting worse. In that case, it is part of an ongoing chemical or biological reaction.

 

[BigFloyd]

No, I use StarSan to sanitize. And I carbon-filter my tap water before use. My next two batches tasted great, and the only real difference in my technique was pitching the yeast at a cooler temperature.

Maybe I'm not describing the off-flavor correctly. It is somewhat harsh, slick, leaves an unpleasant aftertaste. To me it tastes "chemically" (and I'm a former chemist, so I'm pretty sensitive to chemical tastes and smells).

I'll cast a vote for too high of a pitch temp. Even placing it in a 65*F basement, it probably took a long time for that 5 gallons to drop 20*F while at the same time active ferment is kicking in producing more warmth, etc, etc. What yeast did you use?

As already noted, some off-flavors will fade with time. Others (like fusels) remain unchanged. A few (like infections) get worse.

90 min is a crazy amount of time to get to 85*F with an IC. Even with summertime Texas hose water, I could get to 90*F in 13-15 min with my IC. Do you stir your wort while chilling? If not, doing so would really help.

 

[FatDaddy64]

I'll cast a vote for too high of a pitch temp. Even placing it in a 65*F basement, it probably took a long time for that 5 gallons to drop 20*F while at the same time active ferment is kicking in producing more warmth, etc, etc. What yeast did you use?

As already noted, some off-flavors will fade with time. Others (like fusels) remain unchanged. A few (like infections) get worse.

90 min is a crazy amount of time to get to 85*F with an IC. Even with summertime Texas hose water, I could get to 90*F in 13-15 min with my IC. Do you stir your wort while chilling? If not, doing so would really help.

I used Wyeast American Ale II. After I pitched the temperature only dropped into the mid-70s during the fermentation, then finally descended to room temperature after the fermentation was complete (about 48 hours). So the entire fermention was conducted between about 75 and 85 deg F. Like I said, a bigtime rookie mistake (won't happen again)!

I agree, 90 minutes was a long time, which is why I finally gave up and pitched. The hose water was pretty warm at the time, so once I got my wort temp down to 100 deg F, every extra degree drop took a long time. Yes, I do stir my wort while chilling. Like I said in the original post, I now use ice water with an immersion pump to go from 100 to 65, which happens quickly.

 

[BigFloyd]

Sounds like you've got it well covered now. If you pitch around 60*F and put the fermenter in a 65*F basement, that's going to do much better.

It's always preferable to start out a few degrees low and let it rise up on its own to the target temp.

 

[butterpants]

I always pitch around 70F then put the buckets in my 64F basement. The little stick on thermometers usually go to 70-75 within 24 hours... then drop back down to the mid 60ies. Usually leave them for 3-4 weeks. I also calculate my pitch rates and always make stirplate yeast starters plus infuse wort with pure O2 for 120sec. I never have crazy off flavors or super green tasting beer..... but I'm paranoid as hell about it. Why if my ferms are climbing so high initially do I not have similar tasting problems?

 

[brew_ny]

Why if my ferms are climbing so high initially do I not have similar tasting problems?

beer gods have smiled on you

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I always pitch around 70F then put the buckets in my 64F basement. The little stick on thermometers usually go to 70-75 within 24 hours... then drop back down to the mid 60ies. Usually leave them for 3-4 weeks. I also calculate my pitch rates and always make stirplate yeast starters plus infuse wort with pure O2 for 120sec. I never have crazy off flavors or super green tasting beer..... but I'm paranoid as hell about it. Why if my ferms are climbing so high initially do I not have similar tasting problems?

I don't think the OP's problem is the high ferment temp unless he is confusing phenolic type off flavors with fusels. American Ale II yeast is not a phenolic yeast. You shouldn't get any harshness from a raised ferment temp outside of fusels. I still think it is a wild yeast/bacterial infection from the extended time chilling and stirring. Sitting there in the kettle for 90 minutes sub 170*F with all of that exposure to the environment is just an invitation for something to fall in and start working on it.

 

[butterpants]

hmmm ok.

 

[BigFloyd]

I always pitch around 70F then put the buckets in my 64F basement. The little stick on thermometers usually go to 70-75 within 24 hours... then drop back down to the mid 60ies. Usually leave them for 3-4 weeks. I also calculate my pitch rates and always make stirplate yeast starters plus infuse wort with pure O2 for 120sec. I never have crazy off flavors or super green tasting beer..... but I'm paranoid as hell about it. Why if my ferms are climbing so high initially do I not have similar tasting problems?

If you're willing to try one batch where you chill the wort down to 60-62*F before pitching (but do everything else as usual), see if that makes a difference you can taste. I think that there's a good chance you'll decide to make it a standard part of your brewing practice.

 

[butterpants]

If you're willing to try one batch where you chill the wort down to 60-62*F before pitching (but do everything else as usual), see if that makes a difference you can taste. I think that there's a good chance you'll decide to make it a standard part of your brewing practice.

I'm contemplating assembling one of those ebay temp controllers that does heat/cold and tossing it in a chest freezer. It's the next logical progression for me and within reach far as mechanical skill and cost is concerned.

Now that it's getting cold I should be easily able to get my wort chiller to pull 60F.... I'll give it a go, brewing next week.

 

[BigFloyd]

I'm contemplating assembling one of those ebay temp controllers that does heat/cold and tossing it in a chest freezer. It's the next logical progression for me and within reach far as mechanical skill and cost is concerned.

Now that it's getting cold I should be easily able to get my wort chiller to pull 60F.... I'll give it a go, brewing next week.

You won't regret at all rigging the chest freezer up with an STC-1000. I snagged all three of mine from Amazon for 18-19 bucks shipped (2-days) since I'm a prime member.

This may help -

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/stc-1000-setup-beginners-433985/#post5538096

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/ebay-fish-tank-controller-build-using-wal-mart-parts-261506/


https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/ebay-aquarium-temp-controller-build-163849/

 

[butterpants]

You won't regret at all rigging the chest freezer up with an STC-1000. I snagged all three of mine from Amazon for 18-19 bucks shipped (2-days) since I'm a prime member.

This may help -

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/stc-1000-setup-beginners-433985/#post5538096

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/ebay-fish-tank-controller-build-using-wal-mart-parts-261506/

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/ebay-aquarium-temp-controller-build-163849/

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7I-iwFLykxs

Excellent, thank you!

 

[pjj2ba]

No, I use StarSan to sanitize. And I carbon-filter my tap water before use. My next two batches tasted great, and the only real difference in my technique was pitching the yeast at a cooler temperature.

Maybe I'm not describing the off-flavor correctly. It is somewhat harsh, slick, leaves an unpleasant aftertaste. To me it tastes "chemically" (and I'm a former chemist, so I'm pretty sensitive to chemical tastes and smells).

Does it remind you of ethyl acetate, or another similar acetate? Or perhaps a bigger alcohol, like octanol. If so, these are indicators of too warm a fermentation/stressed yeast.

If it reminds you of band aids, then it is either chlorine/chloramine, or an infection

 

[Tex60]

I'm late to this discussion but I learned something from my neighbor that works for the local water department our city water is usually a very low or no chlorine system but if they have a break they sometimes do a big dosing of chlorine carbon filters I don't think will remove dissolved chlorine completely.

 

[ProfessorWoland]

...To me it tastes "chemically" (and I'm a former chemist, so I'm pretty sensitive to chemical tastes and smells).

The Walter White of home brew? Brewing Bad

 

[butterpants]

ha!

 

[FatDaddy64]

Does it remind you of ethyl acetate, or another similar acetate? Or perhaps a bigger alcohol, like octanol. If so, these are indicators of too warm a fermentation/stressed yeast.

If it reminds you of band aids, then it is either chlorine/chloramine, or an infection

It reminds me of solvent, not band aids. Ethyl acetate sounds about right, maybe even low-order alcohols other than ethanol. I'm guessing, based on my reading and on the comments, that I ended up with fusels from pitching too warm.

Thanks everyone for the comments and suggestions.

Walter White, hah! No, I didn't leave chemistry because of a cancer diagnosis, I left because all the research jobs were outsourced to China.

 

[RedShirt]

The one issue I ran into when I started brewing all-grain was tannins. It turned out I had an improperly calibrated thermometer. The heavy tannins from a high mash temp and high mash PH (also hadn't yet really read How To Brew that closely) created a very astringent beer.

Does your flavor seem anything like sucking on over-steeped tea bags?

 

[FatDaddy64]

The one issue I ran into when I started brewing all-grain was tannins. It turned out I had an improperly calibrated thermometer. The heavy tannins from a high mash temp and high mash PH (also hadn't yet really read How To Brew that closely) created a very astringent beer.

Does your flavor seem anything like sucking on over-steeped tea bags?

No, the flavor isn't earthy, leafy, organic...it's more like an organic solvent. I'm pretty careful to sparge with water right at 170 *F, so careful I actually measure my temperatures with two thermometers!