Will an element scorch if covered with hop residue ?
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If flow across the element is low compared to its watt density in a given region, then yes.
I have never heard of hops scorching on an element. The boiling action tends to keep the hops in suspension and circulating rather than on the element.
Perhaps with a pound of hops in a one gallon batch, but I doubt this is a concern.
It is wise to clean elements well after each brew and avoid a build up of any residue.
Perhaps with a pound of hops in a one gallon batch, but I doubt this is a concern.
It is wise to clean elements well after each brew and avoid a build up of any residue.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
if you turn the element off and let the hops settle onto a lwd or regular watt density element than it will almost always scorch as any protein laying on the surface would... it can also happen with ULWD elements but its less likely to happen .
thats said if you keep the wort stirred up before turning an element on as as it approaches the boil its a non issue.
thats said if you keep the wort stirred up before turning an element on as as it approaches the boil its a non issue.
kal
Well-Known Member
+1 to this. I've done batches with almost 1.5 lbs of hops per (10 gallon) batch and never had any issues with the 5500W ULWD element I use. Hops after draining the kettle:
(The one above was Pliny the Elder)
I've also done beers were all hops where over a pound of hops added at the end of the boil for extended (80 minute) hop stands where the element was only firing every once and a while to hold temperature at 170F. No issues at all.
16 oz of hops about to go in my 'Electric Hop Stand Pale Ale':
Stupid amount of hops at the end of the boil after draining:
Kal
LarMoeCur
Well-Known Member
I agree with Kal. After I've pumped to the fermenter. I have had my element completely covered with hop matter. The boil keeps the hops from settling on the element. I've turn the burner off and added whirl pool hops and for got to start the pump. Even then the hops didn't scorch. ULWD is the key.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I would agree from my experience but there are threads here where people with ULWD elements complain of scorching... Maybe its the proteins in some heavy beers and not necessarily hops but It can happen Ive seen pics here.
LarMoeCur
Well-Known Member
I don't doubt it at all. I'm still worried to some degree but once I get my kettle boiling I always back down the power % and have never had any problems.
kal
Well-Known Member
Interesting. Were they all longer ripple style elements? I've seen some off-shore sellers sell what they called ULWD but given the wattage and the length, there's no way they can actually be ULWD. (These were the same sellers that were willing to sell me elements that they would stamp as UL / CSA or any other stamp that I wanted them to include because they said they could reproduce any stamp I liked). Sheesh.
Kal
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=508363&highlight=scorchedInteresting. Were they all longer ripple style elements? I've seen some off-shore sellers sell what they called ULWD but given the wattage and the length, there's no way they can actually be ULWD. (These were the same sellers that were willing to sell me elements that they would stamp as UL / CSA or any other stamp that I wanted them to include because they said they could reproduce any stamp I liked). Sheesh.
Kal
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=585659&highlight=scorched
A couple I pulled up with a quick search.
I have cheap offshore ULWD elements myself. $16 specials I ordered directly from a manufacturer ... no issues at all with scorching with them so far in fact they are actually close to the advertised output and heat evenly. I dont believe it really fair to stereotype all chinese manufacturers as the same... I found the company I dealt with to be pretty helpful and informative.. maybe they will fail before a real camco would only time will tell.
![IMG_20161228_165635518[1].jpg](https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/data/attach/330/330464-IMG-20161228-165635518-1-.jpg "IMG_20161228_165635518[1].jpg")
kal
Well-Known Member
Looking very quickly, it looks that both were BIAB setups that seemed to have issues with lots of grain particulates causing the burning... (?)
Kal
Kal
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
the first one was from scorching that occured after the mash during the boil (according to the OP)
Hey im will you in not seeing how its possible but non the less Ive seen people claim to have it happen... Should it matter whether it was grain protien or hop? why would one scorch and not the other?
kal
Well-Known Member
That's what I'm wondering myself. In a BIAB setup you recirculate past the element and possibly stuff settles out on it over time then when you go to fire it 100% later for the boil you've got some fine sediment stuck to it? Not sure.
Kal
I have scorched one batch in too many to count over many years of w brewing.
It was on this double batch that I paused the session, ran some errands and then returned post mash to heat to boil.
I believe the trub settled and scorched. I believe the proteins are sticky, and also reduce the micro currents and flow at the elements surface.
Just my experienced guess that it is the protein that scorched, not the grain or hops.
Also more reported scorching with wheat, which I believe to be higher protein or sediment laden. JMO
It was on this double batch that I paused the session, ran some errands and then returned post mash to heat to boil.
I believe the trub settled and scorched. I believe the proteins are sticky, and also reduce the micro currents and flow at the elements surface.
Just my experienced guess that it is the protein that scorched, not the grain or hops.
Also more reported scorching with wheat, which I believe to be higher protein or sediment laden. JMO
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
while I agree with you its important to note that you dont use ULWD elements either unless somethings changed?
Most of the scorching related threads are from lwd or regular high watt density elements because its so much easier to have things scorch with them.
There are some reports of scorching with ulwd elements as well, I don't believe they are immune to scorching?
My belief is it is more situational than related to watt density....with high watt density perhaps more occurrences but not overwhelmingly so.
People used HWD elements successfully for years before the popularity and availability of lower watt density elements.
I think I was brewing electric before homebrewtalk existed.
My belief is it is more situational than related to watt density....with high watt density perhaps more occurrences but not overwhelmingly so.
People used HWD elements successfully for years before the popularity and availability of lower watt density elements.
I think I was brewing electric before homebrewtalk existed.
When did it become popular belief that BIAB includes some sort of recirculation? I see this all the time that BIAB is referenced as a single vessel automated system and am confused.
I would think most who BIAB don't recirculate.
It's gotten to the point that I'm afraid some noobs are mistaken to think that recirculating is somehow part of BIAB and is required.
This misrepresentation is far from the original single vessel full volume BIAB premise.
Sorry Kal, just a peeve of mine.
Edit I guess your use of the word "system" may have been intended to imply recirculation.
kal
Well-Known Member
Sorry! You're right - it may not be recirculating.
Kal
Kal
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I have been basically saying the same thing earlier in this thread.. that others with ULWD elements have reported scorching as well it's just not as likely. When I did a search earlier and read through the threads on scorching most of them really seemed to be from 120v non lwd or ULWD elements
It is possible to scorch on ULWD elements.
There are several references to the problem in these threads
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=530987
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=575659 <-- start on page 64.
"Have scroched two brews in a row now. Ditching the straight 304 stainless element for a ripple 804 element. Going to go nuts if I ruin another 15 gallons.
99% it's happening during the boil."
I think the issue in these systems is that they are whirlpooling the mash and the boil wort must be very dirty.
He even built an agitator to try to keep the wort moving over the element.
https://youtu.be/6tkWYO19iyg
There are several references to the problem in these threads
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=530987
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=575659 <-- start on page 64.
"Have scroched two brews in a row now. Ditching the straight 304 stainless element for a ripple 804 element. Going to go nuts if I ruin another 15 gallons.
99% it's happening during the boil."
I think the issue in these systems is that they are whirlpooling the mash and the boil wort must be very dirty.
He even built an agitator to try to keep the wort moving over the element.
https://youtu.be/6tkWYO19iyg
For the same power density, what do you think is more likely to scorch, a heating element or the "floor" of a kettle if it is being gently heated ?
If a kettle had a floor area of 100 in^2 at 50 watts/in^2 = 5 Kw. Same WD as the ULWD heater elements. Which is more prone to scorch ?
If a kettle had a floor area of 100 in^2 at 50 watts/in^2 = 5 Kw. Same WD as the ULWD heater elements. Which is more prone to scorch ?
02RedWS6TA
Well-Known Member
I've burned two more with the 804 element. I'm about to throw it all in the trash and stop brewing all together.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
You may realize this already but the straight element you linked in the first thread was NOT an ulwd element.. I can only assume they are sold with that kit because of cost and convenience not because its the best choice for brewing. Ive read a lot of complaints about them and I believe the systems like brewboss and the like sell are now switching over to ULWD elements. the fact that your still scorching with an ULWD ripple has to do with something in your process... I have made a crazy high hopped IPA with mine as well as hundreds of gallons of other beers now and no signs whatsoever of scorching (short of an incident with a homemade rims before I redesigned it)
You may be on to something with the wort being very cloudy and high in proteins, I recirculate my mash so its crystal clear going into my boil kettle. Plus I use the hop spider so all I get on my element is a light brown film that wipes off after each brewing session on beers that are hop heavy a lot more broken down hop residue comes through the spider but even that has caused no scorching or issues with my plate chiller..
I still believe those basket systems are not very effective at recirculating through the mash since much of the wort takes the path of least resistance and this is proved by the fact that the wort doesnt clear up during the re-circulation period... They look more convenient but I think a bag is superior in function to set a grain bed filter and get better penetration through the mash while mashing and sparging. and if your not recirculating through the mash bed while mashing in this setup your just superheating the wort trapped under the basket which could be the cause of your scorching as well.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Well you would need a heavy tri clad bottom to spread the heat out gently and for it not to have a hot spot where the flame hits it ... I still think because the element is off the bottom it would promote more movement around it and that would help no?
02RedWS6TA
Well-Known Member
The one that comes with it is definitely not ulwd. The one I got from you is. The worts always cloudy and the element is also always caked in proteins when Im done. Like the video I sent you on FB your element cleaned right up no problem on the first brew. These last two I don't have a way to explain. It scorched basically instantly when I turned the element back on. It's gotta be crap settling out on the element and burning when it goes to 100%. Hopefully real movement under the basket will keep stuff from settling on it during the mash with these high wheat/oat worts.
I ordered a chugger max and will run a T in the line so I can keep the entire thing moving at all times. T off to the top of the mash and T into the bottom of the kettle. I needed something for CIP anyway so this is my last ditch effort.
Edit: crap you're not Kal. Lol so we didn't talk, my bad. I only saw the avatar.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Yeah I need to change my avatar... didnt realize how close it is to Kals until he commented on a post I made the other day... even I was confused lol.
kal
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't change the avatar. I like it!
@02RedWS6TA: Are you Justin F? I've been talking to someone that contacted me on Facebook that has an all-in-one Colorado brewing setup (electric BIAB) that was getting scorching with the element that was originally supplied, they tried my 804 SS element and is still getting scorching on a grain bill that is only 4# white wheat and 2# flaked oats on a 31# bill.
Seems to be an issue with some grain bills on eBIAB setups with elements below because the muddy wort is in direct contact with the element and stuff is allowed to settle? (If it was only contact then RIMS setups would have issues too but flow is better there). +1 to HERMS I suppose as the grain is never in contact with the element. By the time it hits the boil kettle it's been vorlaufing for 60+ mins so it's crystal clear - no grain bits or sediment at all and for whatever reason any amount of hops during the boil, or during steeping or hop stands (I've done 80 mins) doesn't seem to have any effect.
Kal
@02RedWS6TA: Are you Justin F? I've been talking to someone that contacted me on Facebook that has an all-in-one Colorado brewing setup (electric BIAB) that was getting scorching with the element that was originally supplied, they tried my 804 SS element and is still getting scorching on a grain bill that is only 4# white wheat and 2# flaked oats on a 31# bill.
Seems to be an issue with some grain bills on eBIAB setups with elements below because the muddy wort is in direct contact with the element and stuff is allowed to settle? (If it was only contact then RIMS setups would have issues too but flow is better there). +1 to HERMS I suppose as the grain is never in contact with the element. By the time it hits the boil kettle it's been vorlaufing for 60+ mins so it's crystal clear - no grain bits or sediment at all and for whatever reason any amount of hops during the boil, or during steeping or hop stands (I've done 80 mins) doesn't seem to have any effect.
Kal
02RedWS6TA
Well-Known Member
Now it's like seeing twins. Yes, I'm Justin.
Hopefully with the bigger pump it'll have enough output to feed both top and bottom of the vessel so I can at least eliminate that from the equation.
Hopefully with the bigger pump it'll have enough output to feed both top and bottom of the vessel so I can at least eliminate that from the equation.
BeardedBrews
Well-Known Member
FWIW I have scorched using my cheap-o straight fold back element, but each time was my fault for restricting liquid flow around the element. Leaving the BIAB bag against the element and applying power creates localized hot spots, which boil, and ultimately scorch.
I am convinced that recirculation and addition of heat to the mash in a bag-based system is a waste of energy and an unnecessary complication to a process that should be simple. I close the lid, insulate, and generally ignore the mash.
At some point I may entertain a basket approach, and with the rigid frame I may revisit the recirculation and heat.
I am convinced that recirculation and addition of heat to the mash in a bag-based system is a waste of energy and an unnecessary complication to a process that should be simple. I close the lid, insulate, and generally ignore the mash.
At some point I may entertain a basket approach, and with the rigid frame I may revisit the recirculation and heat.
I thought I was the only simpleton that had this opinion....
Only downside I see is a kettle wrapped in a few old blankets isn't nearly as pretty as a shiny bling kettle w/ flashing pid, and pump and hoses all about
Even more so when moving to larger 10 plus gallon batches with larger grain bills mash temp are rather steady.
BeardedBrews
Well-Known Member
Even if you aren't doing 10 gallons, it makes a big difference if the mash size matches the kettle. A 5 gallon batch in a 7 gallon pot is a SNUG fit, but it holds temperature much better than 5 gallons in a 15 gallon pot. I haven't investigated, but a floating lid might actually be a nice fix.
As far as bling and blinking lights, I do think it's fair to assign value to things not directly contributing to the flavor of beer. We're talking about a hobby, not a cost saving or profit driving operation. Some of the stuff I do is simply because I like it, or because I got bored with one approach and wanted to do something new. I won't tell you that my shiny pot and pumps make better beer, but they do make me happy while I'm brewing which means I brew more
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
My understanding was that most people that recirculate with BIAB use either a rims or a false bottom to keep the bag away from the element for the reasons you mentioned...
I have had no scorching with my rims even with grainbills high in wheat or oats... I use a very long ulwd rims element for this reason along with longer more even contact time though as well also I do crush my grain very fine with a lot of flour. I find that due to the double layers of filteration under my grain bed and the low 1.5gpm or so flow I recirculate at I still have no issues whatsoever and clear wort so while recirculating might not be ideal for all systems it nets me a consistent 86% efficiency on my brew system and clear beer... This also appears to have the added benefit to allow me to not have to pull my poppets and diptube out when cleaning my kegs because I dont get the protien and hop residue and other solids that some complain about... I dont know which thread it was but recently I was told im not cleaning my kegs good and I should pull them apart after force cleaning them with starsan and co2 and well Ive done that with my last three kegs since reading the advice telling me to do so and Ive had absolutely nothing built up under my posts.
I have scorched two brews in a 4G eBIAB recirc system with a 5500W foldback element running at 120V. I finally fixed it by:
1) using a camco ripple instead of a LWD foldback. Even though both are 5500W running at 120V for 1375W, better safe than sorry.
2) run the PID in manual mode rather than automatic, my system doesn't have a lot of thermal mass and the pid would be at 100% for too long dealing with fluctuations.
3) made sure my recirc worked well. If the recirc stops for any reason or is too slow, yes you'll get junk settling on the element and it can burn.
4) the pump was pulling air from the sides down underneath the element screen and creating nice pockets which when in contact with the element and the junk on it just burned it up. Make sure whatever screen/protector/bag you use has a good enough flow rate so it pulls wort through, not air from the recirc foam.
1) using a camco ripple instead of a LWD foldback. Even though both are 5500W running at 120V for 1375W, better safe than sorry.
2) run the PID in manual mode rather than automatic, my system doesn't have a lot of thermal mass and the pid would be at 100% for too long dealing with fluctuations.
3) made sure my recirc worked well. If the recirc stops for any reason or is too slow, yes you'll get junk settling on the element and it can burn.
4) the pump was pulling air from the sides down underneath the element screen and creating nice pockets which when in contact with the element and the junk on it just burned it up. Make sure whatever screen/protector/bag you use has a good enough flow rate so it pulls wort through, not air from the recirc foam.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Even if you aren't doing 10 gallons, it makes a big difference if the mash size matches the kettle. A 5 gallon batch in a 7 gallon pot is a SNUG fit, but it holds temperature much better than 5 gallons in a 15 gallon pot. I haven't investigated, but a floating lid might actually be a nice fix.
As far as bling and blinking lights, I do think it's fair to assign value to things not directly contributing to the flavor of beer. We're talking about a hobby, not a cost saving or profit driving operation. Some of the stuff I do is simply because I like it, or because I got bored with one approach and wanted to do something new. I won't tell you that my shiny pot and pumps make better beer, but they do make me happy while I'm brewing which means I brew more
This is an honest level headed outlook on brewing equipment IMO even though it kind of counterdicts your earlier comment about recirculating I quoted above for the same reasons right?
At least recirculating does have an actual physical effect on the brewing process, wort and its clarity whereas a shiny kettle or blinking lights do not, yet you state those have value but the other is a waste?
To be the devils advocat here I think there are a lot of new brewers that believe to make better beer they NEED things like the sanitary fittings on the hotside and heavy insulated stainless mashtuns on top of sophisticated redundant systems like herms and rims even though at that point its just seen as a toy to others who know that ones does the job of the other already. More is always better right?
Too often a guy (or gal comes here with a budget minded inquiry about something like a new pot or what he needs as far as an electrical service to brew with electric and people attempt to talk them into stepping up to a 50amp service or blichmann designer kettle even though its often much too much of a commitment and turns them off from the idea....
Whereas if it were a car forum it would be like always recommending the biggest v8 and the most expensive Mercedes to someone looking for their first car even though they can buy a chevy and afford to put a lot more miles on it than the other without getting anywhere any slower.
Everyone likes to defend their own point of view regardless of the fact that we are all looking from different directions.
BeardedBrews
Well-Known Member
This is an honest level headed outlook on brewing equipment IMO even though it kind of counterdicts your earlier comment about recirculating I quoted above for the same reasons right?
Too True! My position was poorly stated, in many ways contradictory, and at a minimum WAY off topic on this thread.
In summary: If liquid is flowing around the element, even a cheap eBay special like the one I use will not scorch. It will build up protein and grime, but that washes cleanly as long as you don't let it dry. The exception would be local hot spots on the element which would suggest you have a defective element.
Bingo.
My experience with BIAB using an unsupported bag is that the lifting, draining, and squeezing I do at the end tends to disrupt any filtered grain particles and dumps them back into the kettle. On top of that, there is a challenge balancing the flow into the top of the bag with the drain rate (I always seem to run it dry under the bag). Today, for me, recirculation causes more problems than it solves, so I avoid it.
Since I enjoy drinking most of the beer I make, there is low pressure to change. At some point I will either become bored or will convince myself that the difference between a 30-35 point beer and a 40 point beer is in the hardware. Then the whole journey of discovery starts again
