Why Not to Pitch On Your Yeast Cake

[Palefire]

How does one "wash" yeast?"

(I'm picturing standing awkwardly at the kitchen sink with a soapy sponge in one hand, trying to scrub a handful of slurry in the other.... haha I'm sure it is much more scientific & sanitary than that)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/

 

[1971hemicuda]

So I apologize for being lazy...but there is a "sticky" at the very top of Yeast and Fermentation that explains in MUCH better detail than I ever could

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Good response Spanish, but since Whitelabs liquid yeast is viable for 6 months, and dried yeast, several years, why is our yeast so feeble?

Sorry! I don't buy it.

I can't provide a very good explanation of why that is (other than the 'manufacturers' prepare/package the yeast better than we do when we wash a cake) but my experience is that it is the case. In the past I've washed cakes and used them 12 hours later, a week later, two weeks later, you get the idea. Just based on the fermentations (at least one of which never took off) it does seem to be true. That's why I don't go over a week anymore.

The liquid yeast we get from the 'manufacturers' does in fact lose viability over time, just look at the viability numbers you get from the Yeast Pitch Calculator. Dry yeast is a whole 'nuther thing (illustrated by the fact that dry yeast doesn't really need aeration but liquid yeast does).

 

[nutty_gnome]

Good response Spanish, but since Whitelabs liquid yeast is viable for 6 months, and dried yeast, several years, why is our yeast so feeble?

Sorry! I don't buy it.

The reason is that the big boys package their yeast with the absolute fewest contaminants (bacteria) possible. As soon as we monkeys start mucking about with mason jars, questionable water, filthy hands, breathing, trub-sludge, and refrigerator detritus, bacteria gets into the process. Thats why it doesn't last as long; bacteria have entered the picture and are competing with the yeast. Over time, bacteria will eventually gain enough ground that if you pitch that slurry into a beer your beer will not taste like it should. Making a starter of older yeast not only 'rejuvinates' the yeast but it give you a chance to taste for off flavors.

 

[cheezydemon3]

I can't provide a very good explanation of why that is (other than the 'manufacturers' prepare/package the yeast better than we do when we wash a cake) but my experience is that it is the case. In the past I've washed cakes and used them 12 hours later, a week later, two weeks later, you get the idea. Just based on the fermentations (at least one of which never took off) it does seem to be true. That's why I don't go over a week anymore.

The liquid yeast we get from the 'manufacturers' does in fact lose viability over time, just look at the viability numbers you get from the Yeast Pitch Calculator. Dry yeast is a whole 'nuther thing (illustrated by the fact that dry yeast doesn't really need aeration but liquid yeast does).

The reason is that the big boys package their yeast with the absolute fewest contaminants (bacteria) possible. As soon as we monkeys start mucking about with mason jars, questionable water, filthy hands, breathing, trub-sludge, and refrigerator detritus, bacteria gets into the process. Thats why it doesn't last as long; bacteria have entered the picture and are competing with the yeast. Over time, bacteria will eventually gain enough ground that if you pitch that slurry into a beer your beer will not taste like it should. Making a starter of older yeast not only 'rejuvinates' the yeast but it give you a chance to taste for off flavors.

That is why I don't wash, or do anything so silly as that.

My already sanitized and airlocked fermenter contains yeast just fine.

4 months has been my limit for saving yeast in my bucket..

The cake was all dried and cracked, so I pitched on the whole thing. Such a vigorous fermentation ensued, I wished I had removed at least half the cake.

It made great beer.

In contrast, 1 cake was left for 2 weeks and when I re-opened it , it had a vinegary smell that smacked of infection. DUMPED, dry yeast in the fridge, new cake for the next batch.

 

[TheMan]

I've washed yeast, let it sit for almost a year and pitched it straight, no starter...lol. I only did it just to see how it would work and wouldn't recommend it as a standard brew procedure at all, but that beer won me first place in competition...

 

[cheezydemon3]

I've washed yeast, let it sit for almost a year and pitched it straight, no starter...lol. I only did it just to see how it would work and wouldn't recommend it as a standard brew procedure at all, but that beer won me first place in competition...

I have nothing against White labs or Wyeast, in fact I am grateful for their diligence in finding particular strains and making tghem available.........BUT...

As I have previously stated, there are no fairies, NASA scientists, or other mythical creatures employed by these companies.......

Bottom line? THERE IS NO MAGIC OR ROCKET SCIENCE INVOLVED.

Trub is OOOOOVERRATED and "fresh yeast" is also overrated.

How is yeast they created through fermentation and washing any different from yours, without any pixie dust from tinkerbell's ass?

 

[scottlindner]

I have nothing against White labs or Wyeast, in fact I am grateful for their diligence in finding particular strains and making tghem available.........BUT...

As I have previously stated, there are no fairies, NASA scientists, or other mythical creatures employed by these companies.......

Bottom line? THERE IS NO MAGIC OR ROCKET SCIENCE INVOLVED.

Trub is OOOOOVERRATED and "fresh yeast" is also overrated.

How is yeast they created through fermentation and washing any different from yours, without any pixie dust from tinkerbell's ass?

Trub may not be a fairy, but it is the boogeyman.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Trub may not be a fairy, but it is the boogeyman.

Actually trub is more "real" than the boogeyman, but it is not the destructor that ruins your beer, if the beer is left on it 1 second over 3 weeks that noobs think it is.

 

[DakotaRules]

Bob thank you for your time and thought that you have put into this and thank you everyone else that has contributed. It took a while to read through it all but it is all very informitive.

What I'm taking away from all this is that along with purifying water, calculating my grain and hops, I will take more time to calculate my yeast starter to a more precise amount.

 

[bajabrewer7]

I second what Dakota said, was about to pour on a cake this weekend, not anymore thanks to Bob, will take a while to get a rhythm for calculations going, but once I do that, I expect my beer to be better..

 

[cheezydemon3]

1/4 of a yeast cake is working great for me.

I admire all the brewers with their calculators out and their stir plates, but a fresh cake, a measured amount (in cups, and yes, I eye ball it) is close enough for me, and I bet, once in a while, my pitching rate is more "ideal" than yours.

 

[cheezydemon3]

LAST THING I WILL SAY.

If you all think that the ancient Germans who made such magical beer, had weekly shipments from white labs, you are smoking hops.

 

[bob1852]

LAST THING I WILL SAY.

If you all think that the ancient Germans who made such magical beer, had weekly shipments from white labs, you are smoking hops.

You're confusing ancient magical beer with what we consider to be "to style" beer today, which is heavily influenced by yeast strain and pitching rates; depending on style...

 

[olllllo]

Ancient? Like 1860's?
Magical? Like Supernatural?

 

[zeno27]

LAST THING I WILL SAY.

If you all think that the ancient Germans who made such magical beer, had weekly shipments from white labs, you are smoking hops.

It also had to be drunk fresh, before it went sour.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Ancient? Like 1860's?
Magical? Like Supernatural?

Evidently, because I doubt if they had a time machine. So they used their magic to produce sparkling new yeast.

It also had to be drunk fresh, before it went sour.

Lets not confuse brewing with containment and storage.

Even with your fresh yeast, if you had NO sanitizer and old wooden barrels and no refridgeration, your avg beer life would suffer too.

 

[SydneyBristow]

LAST THING I WILL SAY.

Didn't believe that for one second.

If you all think that the ancient Germans who made such magical beer, had weekly shipments from white labs, you are smoking hops.

If you think the ancient Germans would have turned down fresh yeast if it were available, then you need to cut back on your meth intake.

 

[cheezydemon3]

Didn't believe that for one second.



If you think the ancient Germans would have turned down fresh yeast if it were available, then you need to cut back on your meth intake.

...........They wouldn't turn down a baloney on rye either,

WTF HAS THAT GOT TO DO WITH ANYTHING????????

 

[zeno27]

And what is the practice of modern German brewers with regards to pitch rates and yeast management?

 

[Bob]

They pay attention to pitch rates and yeast management, because they understand how important it is to world-class beer.

Bob

 

[cheezydemon3]

Hear hear.

 

[bphelan]

Just used this method, pitched about a cup and a half of US-05 slurry from BM's Centennial Blonde into a batch of Edwort's Pale Ale. Airlock activity in less than 3 hours! Thanks Bob

 

[HItransplant]

Odd, I was just searching for info on this and this thread popped to the top. Thanks for all the good info.

 

[tbrink]

Really, really wish I saw this thread two days ago. I washed a cake from an Amber ale and pitched it onto a 5 gallon batch of oatmeal stout in a 7.5 gallon bucket. When I poured in an estimated quart of yeast slurry, I wondered if it might have been too much, so I put in a blowoff tube just in case.

First let me say that I am so freaking glad that I routinely use blowoffs for the first couple of days "just in case". 12 hours later, I walked past the fermenter and noticed the lid was almost cartoonishly bulging out in a grotesquely alarming manner like it was going to explode at any moment. A quick check revealed that the the tube was filled with slow moving krausen, causing things to back up. I quickly found anything that was heavy in order to counter the upward pressure. Cast iron pan? Not enough. Two ten lb. handweights? not even close. Stack of five textbooks? Puh-lease. All of the above plus me sitting on the bucket? Now we're getting somewhere.

Balanced above, I watch the krausen slide through for a bit, then an air bubble went through and let out such a flatulent frenzy that my wife came to see what the commotion was. She finds me sitting on a stack of books on top of the bucket while holding handweights and the reservoir churning with such violence you'd think it was hooked to a pump. She opened her mouth to say something, reconsidered, and instead cocked her head and asked, "did we just avoid an incident?".

"uh, probably. I think if wouldn't have been here, the walls would be covered in stout soon."

She regards the situation and simply says, "this better be good stuff. If that thing would've blown its top, so would I."

Her trust and patience with her husband's mad hobby along with the explosive nature of the situation inspired me to call this batch "old faithful oatmeal stout".

 

[HItransplant]

Really, really wish I saw this thread two days ago. I washed a cake from an Amber ale and pitched it onto a 5 gallon batch of oatmeal stout in a 7.5 gallon bucket. When I poured in an estimated quart of yeast slurry, I wondered if it might have been too much, so I put in a blowoff tube just in case.

First let me say that I am so freaking glad that I routinely use blowoffs for the first couple of days "just in case". 12 hours later, I walked past the fermenter and noticed the lid was almost cartoonishly bulging out in a grotesquely alarming manner like it was going to explode at any moment. A quick check revealed that the the tube was filled with slow moving krausen, causing things to back up. I quickly found anything that was heavy in order to counter the upward pressure. Cast iron pan? Not enough. Two ten lb. handweights? not even close. Stack of five textbooks? Puh-lease. All of the above plus me sitting on the bucket? Now we're getting somewhere.

Balanced above, I watch the krausen slide through for a bit, then an air bubble went through and let out such a flatulent frenzy that my wife came to see what the commotion was. She finds me sitting on a stack of books on top of the bucket while holding handweights and the reservoir churning with such violence you'd think it was hooked to a pump. She opened her mouth to say something, reconsidered, and instead cocked her head and asked, "did we just avoid an incident?".

"uh, probably. I think if wouldn't have been here, the walls would be covered in stout soon."

She regards the situation and simply says, "this better be good stuff. If that thing would've blown its top, so would I."

Her trust and patience with her husband's mad hobby along with the explosive nature of the situation inspired me to call this batch "old faithful oatmeal stout".

<img src="https://www.homebrewtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=39370"/>

Hilarious story...thanks for sharing!

If I may, Id suggest a larger diameter blow off tube than the one you're rockin'. It may prevent any further mayhem, and keep you out of trouble w the mrs.

 

[DakotaRules]

Hilarious story...thanks for sharing!

If I may, Id suggest a larger diameter blow off tube than the one you're rockin'. It may prevent any further mayhem, and keep you out of trouble w the mrs.

+1 on the bigger tube.

 

[ResumeMan]

Oh man I just wish that the photo was taken with you on your "throne"

 

[tbrink]

Watching that krausen slither along oh so slowly made me realize a bigger tube is indeed in order. Incidentally, things have settled down considerably. I estimate I lost about a half gallon of beer, but that's the pessimistic viewpoint...I prefer to think that i saved about 4 and a half gallons...oh, and maybe my marriage too.

 

[gigatropolis]

Since the O2 is used during the growth phase, can pitching highly oxygenated yeast on top of the yeast cake leave a lot of unused O2 on the beer? Could this cause problems later due to oxidizing of the beer?