Why no head in my brown ale?

[psehorne]

My latest brown ale has almost not head. Is there anything in the screenprint below that reveals an answer?

Should I have included some Cara-Pils?

Recipe and Mash schedule:

 

[day_trippr]

Those two protein rests are suspects...

Cheers!

 

[psehorne]

Those two protein rests are suspects...

Cheers!

I've used those protein rests in all my 50+ brews.

 

[day_trippr]

Why?

 

[psehorne]

My latest brown ale has almost not head. Is there anything in the screenprint below that reveals an answer?

Should I have included some Cara-Pils?

Recipe and Mash schedule:
View attachment 871433

BTW, no head even though CO2 at 15 PSI and 42F (5.6C) for 2.6 vol of carbonation.

Why?

Because it had always worked. Why not?

 

[day_trippr]

While protein rests on modern well-modified malts may have some positives wrt mash efficiency, improved lautering and reduced chill haze, the down side is an association with poor head retention. I don't use protein rests unless using a high percentage of wheat/oats/rye malts or adjuncts and generally have very good head formation and retention...

Cheers!

 

[mac_1103]

Why not?

Because most modern malts are fully modified, which means that the proteins that would get digested during a protein rest have already been digested.

 

[mac_1103]

the down side is an association with poor head retention

It is somewhat paradoxical on the surface since one of the reasons given for doing a protein rest in the first place is to improve body and head retention. But if you're starting with proteins that have already been broken down into moderate length chains, then digesting them further can have the opposite effect.

 

[psehorne]

While protein rests on modern well-modified malts may have some positives wrt mash efficiency, improved lautering and reduced chill haze, the down side is an association with poor head retention. I don't use protein rests unless using a high percentage of wheat/oats/rye malts or adjuncts and generally have very good head formation and retention...

Cheers!

Okay. Thanks for the input.

 

[RM-MN]

Have you changed you cleaning regimen? Different cleaner, different amount, different rinsing? Even a tiny amount of detergent will completely kill the heading on your beer. BTDT

 

[psehorne]

Because most modern malts are fully modified, which means that the proteins that would get digested during a protein rest have already been digested.

When did 'modern' start?

 

[psehorne]

Have you changed you cleaning regimen? Different cleaner, different amount, different rinsing? Even a tiny amount of detergent will completely kill the heading on your beer. BTDT

I could have not rinsed well enough, I guess.

 

[mac_1103]

When did 'modern' start?

I don't know, but it was before I started brewing all grain.

 

[VTMongoose]

It's got to be process related, whatever it is.

What's your cold-side process like? Are you performing closed transfers? Are you using any pumps? Autosiphons? Oxygen kills beer, and head retention is one of those things it easily kills.

Are you using any fermcap or any kind of defoamer? How much, and when? These can kill your head retention.

What are you cleaning and rinsing your equipment with? What's your sanitization procedure like?

What were your fermentation conditions? Were the temps controlled, or did the beer get really hot, especially towards the tail end of fermentation? Autolysis is rare but it can happen, it's happened to me in a couple saisons. Murders the head.

edit: 20 mL of 85% phosphoric acid is an absolutely insane amount. Is this correct???

 

[psehorne]

In the past few weeks, in addition to the Brown Ale, using those rests I have brewed:

• Alaskan Amber Ale clone
• American IPA
• Blonde Ale

These have all had normal head.

I've also brewed:

• Vienna Lager
• Amber Ale

These are still fermenting; so I hope they turn out well.

 

[psehorne]

I don't know, but it was before I started brewing all grain.

When did you start brewing all grain.

 

[mac_1103]

Early this decade. But I'm pretty sure "modern" malting predates that by quite a lot.

 

[psehorne]

It's got to be process related, whatever it is.

What's your cold-side process like? Are you performing closed transfers? Are you using any pumps? Autosiphons? Oxygen kills beer, and head retention is one of those things it easily kills.

Auto-siphon (same as I done for many brews)

Are you using any fermcap or any kind of defoamer? How much, and when? These can kill your head retention.

None of those.

What are you cleaning and rinsing your equipment with? What's your sanitization procedure like?

Sanitize with water with a small amount of bleach.

What were your fermentation conditions? Were the temps controlled, or did the beer get really hot, especially towards the tail end of fermentation? Autolysis is rare but it can happen, it's happened to me in a couple saisons. Murders the head.

Room temp fermenting at 68-71 F. Nothing higher.

edit: 20 mL of 85% phosphoric acid is an absolutely insane amount. Is this correct???

It takes about 20 ml to bring pH down to mid 5.x
I am using a brand new (cheap) pH meter that I have not calibrated. I start at 15 ml (because I know it has always taken at least that much to get my well water to 5.x, then add a coupe ml more until pH meter reads 5.x. I probably should calibrate my new pH meter.

 

[psehorne]

Early this decade. But I'm pretty sure "modern" malting predates that by quite a lot.

I have been using these protein rests since I started brewing in 2012. If 'modern' grains began after that I may need to change my mash schedule.

 

[psehorne]

Blonde Ale using the same protein rests as the Brown Ale also at 15 PSI and 42F.

 

[shoengine]

Blonde Ale using the same protein rests as the Brown Ale also at 15 PSI and 42F.

View attachment 871438

That looks over carbonated. Is your brown ale under carbonated?

 

[dmtaylor]

Your first protein rest at 50 C caused this. For the love of beer, please don't do a 50 C rest ever again. Problem solved.

 

[fluketamer]

Early this decade. But I'm pretty sure "modern" malting predates that by quite a lot.

i know professor google is looked down upon but in a pinch he's usually on the ball.

( i was going tot say the 60's but i was pretty far off)

The practice of modifying malts in homebrewing, meaning using different types and levels of modification to achieve various flavor and color profiles, became more common and accessible with the renaissance of homebrewing in the 1990s, along with access to improved ingredients and supplies.

Here's a more detailed look:

• Historical Context:
  While malting and brewing have ancient roots, the modern understanding of malt modification and its impact on beer flavor and color developed over time.
  
  
• Pre-1990s:
  Before the 1990s, homebrewers had limited access to a wide variety of malts and brewing equipment compared to today.
  
  
• The 1990s Renaissance:
  The 1990s saw a resurgence of homebrewing and craft brewing, fueled by factors like improved ingredients, access to liquid yeast, pelletized hops, and homebrew supplies.
  
  
• Modern Malts:
  Today, homebrewers can access a wide range of malt types, from pale malts to specialty malts with various levels of modification, allowing for experimentation and the creation of diverse beer styles.

so it seems like in the 1990's modified malts ( that dont necessarily need protein rests) became available

 

[psehorne]

That looks over carbonated. Is your brown ale under carbonated?

Yes, it is. I know that. I turned the CO2 pressure up trying to get a good head on the Brown Ale. I don't usually run the PSI that high. But even that high pressure the Brown Ale has no head.

 

[psehorne]

i know professor google is looked down upon but in a pinch he's usually on the ball.

( i was going tot say the 60's but i was pretty far off)

The practice of modifying malts in homebrewing, meaning using different types and levels of modification to achieve various flavor and color profiles, became more common and accessible with the renaissance of homebrewing in the 1990s, along with access to improved ingredients and supplies.

Here's a more detailed look:

• Historical Context:
  While malting and brewing have ancient roots, the modern understanding of malt modification and its impact on beer flavor and color developed over time.
  
  
• Pre-1990s:
  Before the 1990s, homebrewers had limited access to a wide variety of malts and brewing equipment compared to today.
  
  
• The 1990s Renaissance:
  The 1990s saw a resurgence of homebrewing and craft brewing, fueled by factors like improved ingredients, access to liquid yeast, pelletized hops, and homebrew supplies.
  
  
• Modern Malts:
  Today, homebrewers can access a wide range of malt types, from pale malts to specialty malts with various levels of modification, allowing for experimentation and the creation of diverse beer styles.

so it seems like in the 1990's modified malts ( that dont necessarily need protein rests) became available

So the mash profile I have used and worked since 2012 must not be the problem.

 

[mac_1103]

So the mash profile I have used and worked since 2012 must not be the problem.

Unless there's something unique to the Brown Ale recipe that suffers particularly from the low temp rests. But yeah, it seems a lot more likely that the problem stems from doing something different. Even if you don't know what it is that you did on this batch that's different.

 

[Bramling Cross]

It takes about 20 ml to bring pH down to mid 5.x
I am using a brand new (cheap) pH meter that I have not calibrated. I start at 15 ml (because I know it has always taken at least that much to get my well water to 5.x, then add a coupe ml more until pH meter reads 5.x. I probably should calibrate my new pH meter.

You absolutely, positively have to calibrate that tool. It cannot be trusted unless it's calibrated.

The only time I'll skip calibration is if I brewed the prior day. Also, as someone that wasted a fair bit of money on cheap and/or excellent but difficult to calibrate pH meters, get a reliable, easy to use meter. It's worth the extra money because you can actually trust the data produced by a quality, trustworthy pH meter.

I think the world of the Apera pH60. It has more than doubled in price since I bought mine, but it's still a bargain for its reliability, accuracy, ease of use, and reasonable probe replacement costs.

Also, rather than buying large and expensive bottles of calibration fluid that will go off before you're able to use even a quarter of the contents, consider buying your calibration fluid in boxes of liquid sachets. They're shelf stable, economical, and they set you up for success. Best of all, they're cheap enough that you can swap out your fluid on a monthly basis. In turn, that means you can really trust your meter.

 

[psehorne]

Your first protein rest at 50 C caused this. For the love of beer, please don't do a 50 C rest ever again. Problem solved.

Thanks for your input...

But, it doesn't explain why ALL my other brews using these same rests have turned out fine... with the expected head. Is this speculation or anecdotal?

If it aint' broke don't fix it. Since these rests have been used with great in over 50 brews (anecdotal evidence), I have been reluctant to change or remove either them.

In any event I can give it a try. But I will have to make two batches of the same recipe, one using both rests and one removing the 50C rest.

 

[psehorne]

... But yeah, it seems a lot more likely that the problem stems from doing something different. Even if you don't know what it is that you did on this batch that's different.

I agree.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Unless there's something unique to the Brown Ale recipe that suffers particularly from the low temp rests. But yeah, it seems a lot more likely that the problem stems from doing something different. Even if you don't know what it is that you did on this batch that's different.

I agree. Also, he has over 10% C-malt in that grist, plus the roasted malts. He has plenty of known head-builders in that grist.

How long has it been carbonated? Did you over-carb it at some point?

 

[psehorne]

You absolutely, positively have to calibrate that tool. It cannot be trusted unless it's calibrated.

The only time I'll skip calibration is if I brewed the prior day. Also, as someone that wasted a fair bit of money on cheap and/or excellent but difficult to calibrate pH meters, get a reliable, easy to use meter. It's worth the extra money because you can actually trust the data produced by a quality, trustworthy pH meter.

I think the world of the Apera pH60. It has more than doubled in price since I bought mine, but it's still a bargain for its reliability, accuracy, ease of use, and reasonable probe replacement costs.

Also, rather than buying large and expensive bottles of calibration fluid that will go off before you're able to use even a quarter of the contents, consider buying your calibration fluid in boxes of liquid sachets. They're shelf stable, economical, and they set you up for success. Best of all, they're cheap enough that you can swap out your fluid on a monthly basis. In turn, that means you can really trust your meter.

Great advice. Thank you.
Is this meter the one you recommend?

 

[Bramling Cross]

Yes, sir.

And these are the pH solution sachets that I use. Cripes, have they gotten expensive! They used to be nine bucks. Nevertheless, that'll get you a year's worth of accurate calibration for less than the cost of the bottled stuff.

 

[psehorne]

I agree. Also, he has over 10% C-malt in that grist, plus the roasted malts. He has plenty of known head-builders in that grist.

How long has it been carbonated? Did you over-carb it at some point?

I brewed it on March 2nd.
Fermented it in a carboy at room temperature with US-05
I kegged it last Sunday,March 16, after two weeks in the carboy.
The CO2 has not been higher than 15 PSI.
Today was the first pour.

 

[psehorne]

Yes, sir.

And these are the pH solution sachets that I use. Cripes, have they gotten expensive! They used to be nine bucks. Nevertheless, that'll get you a year's worth of accurate calibration for less than the cost of the bottled stuff.

Okay, thanks. Both in my Amazon cart....

 

[Bramling Cross]

Okay, thanks. Both in my Amazon cart....

I've had several brewers buy both based upon my recommendation. No one has complained yet--which is always a huge relief to me! In fact, everyone has been impressed with the meter. While it may seem like a hassle at first, if you stick with it it'll quickly become a transparent part of your brew day.

Going forward, stick three coffee mugs (I noticed you use Celsius, so you might call them beakers?) in your freezer the night prior to brewing. When you take a sample, run it into one of your frozen mugs, then place it in the freezer. Next, set a timer for 8min and you should wind up with sample that is roughly 68F if you pulled the sample from your mash tun. A sample from the kettle might take a few extra minutes.

I wish you the best of luck with your new probe. Feel free to PM if you have any questions once you get your hands on it.

 

[AlexKay]

Foam-positives include malt protein, roast malt, iso-alpha-acids, CO2, N2, and zinc.
Negatives include ethanol, crystal malts, and lipids.

The positives and negatives are both always there, and it's a balancing act -- possibly one with more than one dimension -- that determines the quality of the foam.

If your question is "how do I get better foam on my next beer," then your answer is to add some wheat malt, post-fermentation zinc if you're up to that, as well as (as mentioned multiple times) getting rid of those low-temperature rests. (I do not think the answer is CaraPils or the like.)

If your question is "why is this beer different than my other beers," it's a bit of a mystery. Is it more alcoholic or less bitter than your usual beer? Do you usually brew with less crystal? Any possibility of lipid or detergent exposure (either of fermentation hardware or drinkware) due to little changes in cleaning regimen? When's the last time you cleaned your lines?

 

[Bramling Cross]

I brewed it on March 2nd.
Fermented it in a carboy at room temperature with US-05
I kegged it last Sunday,March 16, after two weeks in the carboy.
The CO2 has not been higher than 15 PSI.
Today was the first pour.

That could be a culprit right there. You're not quite burst carbonating, nor have you waited long enough for the slower, longer method. You might not be fully saturated at this point. There's a term for that and it escapes me right now. Give it a few more days, you might find that's it's just fine.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Negatives include ethanol, crystal malts, and lipids.

Alex, I'm not trying to call you out or blusteringly demand to see your sources. You're a fantastic brewer and I pay attention to what you write, so I'm curious about your remark regarding C-malts as foam negative. Is that just for the darker varieties, or is this related to the "carapils doesn't work" thing? I generally avoid C-malts like the plague, but I've started using them a bit in my UK ales whereas I previously didn't. If you have the time, I'd like to learn more about this.

 

[psehorne]

Foam-positives include malt protein, roast malt, iso-alpha-acids, CO2, N2, and zinc.
Negatives include ethanol, crystal malts, and lipids.

The positives and negatives are both always there, and it's a balancing act -- possibly one with more than one dimension -- that determines the quality of the foam.

If your question is "how do I get better foam on my next beer," then your answer is to add some wheat malt, post-fermentation zinc if you're up to that, as well as (as mentioned multiple times) getting rid of those low-temperature rests. (I do not think the answer is CaraPils or the like.)

Thanks for your input.

If your question is "why is this beer different than my other beers," it's a bit of a mystery. Is it more alcoholic or less bitter than your usual beer?

No.

Do you usually brew with less crystal?

For a Brown Ale, 'yes'. I'll add to my experiment list to use less.

Any possibility of lipid or detergent exposure (either of fermentation hardware or drinkware) due to little changes in cleaning regimen?

Well, I could have not rinsed well enough.

When's the last time you cleaned your lines?

About 6 weeks ago. Three batches between cleaning the lines and this Brown Ale brew.
I have some new EVABarrier lines arriving tomorrow. So will be changing out the lines this weekend.

 

[mac_1103]

There's a term for that and it escapes me right now.

Equilibrium.

kegged it last Sunday,March 16

Do you usually start pouring a keg after just five days on CO2?