Why is wine fermentation schedule different from beer?

[honkey]

Why do all the instructions that I have read say to transfer to secondary before fermentation has completed? With beer (assuming I secondary at all) I always wait until fermentation has completely finished before racking to secondary. I also see that after you degas it says to bottle, why can't you just do a secondary for 3 months or so, degas if you need to, and then bottle. Would this not be a better way to age the wine... I thought bulk aging was always the way to go. No? I am sure I have more questions... I am gradually liking the idea of starting a cellar more and more. Which actually brings me to another question... I read an article earlier that said the window of the wine tasting good is not more than a few months from kits, but this also seemed inaccurate. It seems like if it is stored at a reasonable temperature, wine could be aged for many years. Sorry for so many threads in 2 days... I am out of my comfort zone and I kind of like it!

 

[Yooper]

Why do all the instructions that I have read say to transfer to secondary before fermentation has completed? With beer (assuming I secondary at all) I always wait until fermentation has completely finished before racking to secondary. I also see that after you degas it says to bottle, why can't you just do a secondary for 3 months or so, degas if you need to, and then bottle. Would this not be a better way to age the wine... I thought bulk aging was always the way to go. No? I am sure I have more questions... I am gradually liking the idea of starting a cellar more and more. Which actually brings me to another question... I read an article earlier that said the window of the wine tasting good is not more than a few months from kits, but this also seemed inaccurate. It seems like if it is stored at a reasonable temperature, wine could be aged for many years. Sorry for so many threads in 2 days... I am out of my comfort zone and I kind of like it!

As far as the timeline, often with wine you're using fruit and/or other stuff that needs to be stirred down in primary so the "cap" doesn't dry out. You want to stop stirring, though, and airlock the wine when the SG gets to 1.010-1.020 or so. Usually, primaries are loosely covered and not airlocked. Once fermentation slows down, the wine must be airlocked and protected from oxygen.

Generally, only wine kits need to be degassed, because they are rushed to the bottle. If you're not rushing to bottle and bulk aging, degassing isn't usually necessary as the wine will off-gas during the multiple rackings and bulk aging.

Most of my wines are bottled at between one and two years of age. These are both grape wines and "country wines". The wine benefits from a couple of rackings (to get it off of the lees) and isn't bottled until completely clear and no longer dropping lees. The wines will be racked every 60 days or so, as long as there are lees 1/4" deep. When no more lees form, aging can begin. Remember that the wine must be topped up, to within an inch or two of the bung, after fermentation slows down and/or ends.

However, the cheaper kits are different. They don't have much depth or much tannin in them, as to be ready faster. As a result, aging doesn't improve them. They will peak in about a year or so, even with adding extra sulfites at bottling. If you want a wine to age, they have some very nice "crushendo" kits in the $150 range that age nicely and don't even come into their own for a year or more.

 

[DoctorCAD]

Because one is beer and the other is wine.

Wine may sit 6 months or more in secondary and you really don't want the taste of a billion dead yeast cells absorbed by your wine.

Bulk aging is great, but not everyone (including me) wants to keep a carboy tied up for a year or so.

I have tasted my wines at bottling, at 1 month, at 6 months, etc.

Most DO get better with time, some don't. That's the nature of wine.

 

[WIP]

delete

Yooper beat me to it.

 

[honkey]

As far as the timeline, often with wine you're using fruit and/or other stuff that needs to be stirred down in primary so the "cap" doesn't dry out. You want to stop stirring, though, and airlock the wine when the SG gets to 1.010-1.020 or so. Usually, primaries are loosely covered and not airlocked. Once fermentation slows down, the wine must be airlocked and protected from oxygen.

Generally, only wine kits need to be degassed, because they are rushed to the bottle. If you're not rushing to bottle and bulk aging, degassing isn't usually necessary as the wine will off-gas during the multiple rackings and bulk aging.

Most of my wines are bottled at between one and two years of age. These are both grape wines and "country wines". The wine benefits from a couple of rackings (to get it off of the lees) and isn't bottled until completely clear and no longer dropping lees. The wines will be racked every 60 days or so, as long as there are lees 1/4" deep. When no more lees form, aging can begin. Remember that the wine must be topped up, to within an inch or two of the bung, after fermentation slows down and/or ends.

However, the cheaper kits are different. They don't have much depth or much tannin in them, as to be ready faster. As a result, aging doesn't improve them. They will peak in about a year or so, even with adding extra sulfites at bottling. If you want a wine to age, they have some very nice "crushendo" kits in the $150 range that age nicely and don't even come into their own for a year or more.

So will those wines start to go downhill after they peak, or will they just not get better? I have mostly been looking at the kits on brewmasterswarehouse and they look like most of the ones I have looked at have 15-16 quarts of concentrate and some of them have skins also. I have also looked at the cheaper mist wine kits as something to have ready quickly, but I am not sure if those are good for cheap wines or not.

 

[Yooper]

So will those wines start to go downhill after they peak, or will they just not get better? I have mostly been looking at the kits on brewmasterswarehouse and they look like most of the ones I have looked at have 15-16 quarts of concentrate and some of them have skins also. I have also looked at the cheaper mist wine kits as something to have ready quickly, but I am not sure if those are good for cheap wines or not.

Well, the "mist" kits won't improve after a year, and may start to deteriorate. However, you shouldn't have any laying around that long! They are low ABV "wine cooler" style, and go down fast and easy! My best friend has a pool, and we'll kill more than a couple of those bottles on a summer day. The "mist" kits are like the Arbor Mist style of "wine", not a wine at all but a fruity girly drink. Her husband loves them! They are good, if you like that sort of thing.

The Winexpert kits in the $60-$80 range are "ok". Not great, but certainly not bad. They're drinkable early, but won't age well and will deteriorate in about 2 years. They don't have much depth but are a decent table wine. I'd consider them equal to perhaps a $5-7 bottle of wine. These are usually about 12-13% ABV and super easy to make.

The kits with the skins are higher quality- generally 12.5-15% ABV and wine made from grapes and more of a table wine. The better kits- those $125-150 will make a wine comparable to a $20-$25 bottle. They age very well, and improve for several years. Then they peak, and will begin to deteriorate. They'll still be good for about 5 years, though.

What I do is make a mix of different kits, for different purposes. The cheaper Winexpert kits are fine for Bob and I for our everyday dinner wines. (Yes, we have wine with dinner every single night). The better kits, with the skins, are great for guests and for special occasions. You'd be happy to serve this to guests, but perhaps not major wine snobs. The Island Mist kits are strictly for hors doerves or those "girly" drinkers in the group, or like a pool party. Those would be really good carbonated, I think.

I have kits from several different prize ranges, for several different purposes. Some of my wines are not from kits at all, and then I make a ton of "country" wines, too. I like having some wines ready quickly while others age a bit.

If you want a reasonably quick table wine, the cheaper kits (not the Mist kits) would be a good bet.

 

[honkey]

Thanks Yooper. I have lurked these forums for a while now and you always seem to give good advice no matter how stupid the question.

 

[flabyboy]

Yooper. Have you tried the Limited Edition kits by Winexper?. I have been doing 2-3 of those a year for the last 10 years or so and love them. The whites are very drinkable after about 3 months, but the reds really come of their own at 2 years. I wish they would rerelease the Pinot Noir and Napa Chardonnay. Those and the Super Tuscan are my all time favorites

 

[gimmebeer]

Yooper. Have you tried the Limited Edition kits by Winexper?. I have been doing 2-3 of those a year for the last 10 years or so and love them. The whites are very drinkable after about 3 months, but the reds really come of their own at 2 years. I wish they would rerelease the Pinot Noir and Napa Chardonnay. Those and the Super Tuscan are my all time favorites

We're obviously off-topic here but what fun is life if we never color outside the lines? I agree on the Winexpert limiteds. I've tried just two, but both are among my favorites. The 2009 Petit Verdot is so good at 6 months, it's hard to keep my hands off it. I understand it's out of this world at 2 years, do I'm trying to lay off.

 

[flabyboy]

I made the Verdot when it first came out. Had it around for 3-4. It was much better after a few years so be patient

 

[truckjohn]

Here's my little epiphany on the subject of why Wine and Beer are different...

It all boils down to..... God gave Man wine... Man decided to go make beer....

If you have a bucket full of fully ripe grapes... picked straight off the vines... cover it with a cloth, and let it sit - it will turn to wine all by itself.

If you look at the gyrations we go through in home and commercial wine making - the goal is usually to make a more "Consistent" wine than you get from a wild fermentation - but not necessarily a "Better" product than "wild" yeast could give you... if that makes sense.... Many don't want to risk a barrel of vinegar, or weird off flavors, so they sanitize the must with sulphite, measure brix and acid, and pitch "Wine" yeast... but many don't.... They just mush up grapes in a bucket, add some sugar, and off it goes.... 3-6 months later they rack it off and Viola! Wine! The high alcohol content of wine made this way (13+%) tends to make it self-sterile... so once it's done, it stores pretty well all by itself.

If you take a bucket of grain and add some water.... You end up with a stinky, moldy bucket full of worms, maggots, sprouting grain, lactic acid and 1/2% alcohol... You can get a bit closer if you start with loaves of bread made from malted barley.... But... Beer isn't really a naturally occurring thing... Success is very much process oriented and totally reliant upon the work and skill of the brewer....

Thanks

John

 

[craigevo]

I brew wine kits and beer all grain - have wondered the same thing, but so far this thread doesnt seem to answer the original question very well. I will admit that I know virtually nothing about brewing wine but would like to learn more from this thread.

Why does wine have to be racked off at 1010-1020. Dont know - Also never understood this. The suggestion that it is because wine fermenters are loosely covered doesnt work for me since you still have a lot of co2 on top and more being generated to pretect the wine from oxygen - same as for beer fermenting in loosely covered vessel. Racking to secondary may introduce more oxygen to the wine picked up during transfer. In any case if you attach an airlock to primary for both your wine and beer then there is surely no difference?

Next up - wine sits around for months aging whereas beer does not normally do so. fairly true, but if doing a big beer you may well leave it in primary for a month or so and then rack off to a secondary to age, you wouldnt need to do it before fermentation has finished and probably shouldnt do so before the bulk of the yeast gets chance to clean up. Doesnt wine yeast clean up after itself like beer yeast ?

The only good reason I can think of to rack before FG is if you have skins and stuff in the primary that might add too many tanins or some vegetal flavours ? How long would you get before this could happen - anyone ? Is this the same thing as not leaving dry hops in a beer for too long ?

Lastly, I would like to admit to having fermented a wine kit out completely in one single vessel loosely covered for a month. then degassed, sulfited etc, then left for another month - still without racking and no air lock - and finally bottling straight from the primary - and it tasted better than what I get when following kit instructions. I just wanted to try brewing a wine kit the same way as I would a big beer and see what would happen. Obviously I would never degass a beer !

 

[truckjohn]

There are very good reasons that the schedules are very different.... Beer isn't wine.

For example... Not all wines must be racked off the lees at 1.01 or 1.02.... It probably helps some... Probably doesn't help many.... It is a sensible thing to do if you have to rack the wine off the fruit or if you are trying to prevent a Malo-lactic fermentation in a red wine..... On the other hand - overzealously racking too early can lead to stuck fermentations and funky off flavors just like in beer.....

Then - doing the entire fermentation in a loosely covered bucket..... Sure, it could potentially work out great... Likely, the wine is nicely degassed and could taste better sooner.... The flip side is that the risk of oxidizing and infection are high.... Moldy, cardboardy tasting wine isn't particularly appetizing.

Remember - These methods were developed around goals of producing more consistent wine and loosing almost none of it.. There are many methods that could potentially produce great wine but carry a much higher risk of loosing batches.... Is it worth it to you to loose a couple batches of wine to Vinegar, Brett, or Mold... especially an expensive kit?

Some folks are OK with the risks... and they make a bunch of wine... but they loose a bunch too...

Thanks

 

[Yooper]

I brew wine kits and beer all grain - have wondered the same thing, but so far this thread doesnt seem to answer the original question very well. I will admit that I know virtually nothing about brewing wine but would like to learn more from this thread.

Why does wine have to be racked off at 1010-1020. Dont know - Also never understood this. The suggestion that it is because wine fermenters are loosely covered doesnt work for me since you still have a lot of co2 on top and more being generated to pretect the wine from oxygen - same as for beer fermenting in loosely covered vessel. Racking to secondary may introduce more oxygen to the wine picked up during transfer. In any case if you attach an airlock to primary for both your wine and beer then there is surely no difference?

Next up - wine sits around for months aging whereas beer does not normally do so. fairly true, but if doing a big beer you may well leave it in primary for a month or so and then rack off to a secondary to age, you wouldnt need to do it before fermentation has finished and probably shouldnt do so before the bulk of the yeast gets chance to clean up. Doesnt wine yeast clean up after itself like beer yeast ?

The only good reason I can think of to rack before FG is if you have skins and stuff in the primary that might add too many tanins or some vegetal flavours ? How long would you get before this could happen - anyone ? Is this the same thing as not leaving dry hops in a beer for too long ?

Lastly, I would like to admit to having fermented a wine kit out completely in one single vessel loosely covered for a month. then degassed, sulfited etc, then left for another month - still without racking and no air lock - and finally bottling straight from the primary - and it tasted better than what I get when following kit instructions. I just wanted to try brewing a wine kit the same way as I would a big beer and see what would happen. Obviously I would never degass a beer !

I rack my wine when primary is finishing up- at 1.010-1.020. That's because that is a good time to airlock it, as well as get it off of a ton of lees. Sure, fermentation produces c02, but that "blanket" you referred to isn't a permanent layer of co2 that stays indefinitely. Air seeks equilibruim, so the co2 will disipate. That's why there is an airlock- so the co2 can vent but air can't enter.

Wine yeast don't "clean up" after fermentation. Ale yeast doesn't really either- once fermentation is over and the "green" flavor is gone, aging is best done with a minimum of trub or lees.

You don't want wine sitting on lees for more than a couple of months, unless your aging sur lie. That itself will produce off-flavors.

I don't degas wines usually- leaving them in a carboy appropriately topped up for long enough will allow them to naturally degas. Often, the only reason to degas is because the kit instructions rush you to bottle. Most wines don't need it after several rackings and time. Like I mentioned, the co2 blanket isn't a long term indefinite protection for beer or wine! The idea of using a carboy with no headspace is to protect the beer and/or wine from oxidation in the long term.

Short term with headspace is ok. If your wine kit is good, that's wonderful.

 

[KevinM]

Do you suppose beer gets a bit more benefit from being on yeast flavorwise, since there are times a yeast flavor in beer is desired, while for wines, you're looking less for flavors given by yeast and more by the fruit or juice? And because you want less impact from yeast, you want it off the lees?

Why not airlock it from the start in a tighter container? Does it increase the pressure in the fermenter by that much that it would mix with the fermeting liquid?

 

[truckjohn]

Not really... Primary fermentation in a bucket is more about how aggressively wine ferments.... The famous term is "Wine Geysers".... During the primary - A topped up carboy will literally squirt wine out the top and spray it all over the place.... It's quite a sight to behold....

It's also not about flavors from the yeast or not flavors from the yeast - as many of the Estery fruity flavors and much of the wine character comes from the yeast....

Think... Many ale yeasts are favored for their "Neutral" flavor - not contributing a whole bunch of fruity flavors and character of it's own.... Most ale yeast runs best at 60-65 and start producing weird flavors much over that.... Many wine yeasts really run best at 70-80... and can do weird things if they are fermented too cold....... and those fruity flavors and wine character is wanted.....

Thanks

 

[KevinM]

Yikes, guess I'll get a bucket for wine then. Thanks.

 

[craigevo]

You don't want wine sitting on lees for more than a couple of months

Agree - similar to beer. That's why I only leave it in primary for up to two months. If I plan to do longer then I rack to a secondary glass carboy after one month and top up - still don't airlock though I just put some foil on loosely. I think I will, however, airlock my secondary in future since its easy to do. Thanks! I hope I haven't thrown all my airlocks away ! Cant remember the last time I used one.

I wont argue about whether ale yeast clean up or not after FG since its been covered many times before. I will consider the suggestion, however, that wine yeast do not. Didnt know that.