Why I Switched from Bottling to Kegging

[ocwo92]

I've just begun to keg my beer instead of bottling it.

The short version: I'm speculating that my problems with gushing is neither caused by over-carbonation nor by infection, but by low yeast flocculation (or possibly bottles that are so clean that the sediment won't stick to the bottom of the bottles, although this seems a little unlikely). Regardless, it is evident that my beer gushes because particles are torn from the sediment causing nucleous for the CO2 that starts a chain reaction. By flushing the sediment, as will happen because a keg is emptied bottom-first, my theory is that the gushing will be eliminated. My first attempt seems to confirm my hypothesis, but there's an obvious chance that it's beginner's luck.

The longer version: here.

 

[broadbill]

Comparing kegs to bottles is like comparing apples to footballs in almost every sense. If I were to guess I would say you are either incorrectly calculating and/or not mixing in the priming sugar; both of which would explain what is happening. Have you looked at this?

 

[mongoose33]

I don't think this is why you're having gushers. If it were truly the case that a lot of suspended yeast is the cause of gushers, the easy solution is a high flocculation yeast and see if that makes a difference, rather than relying on a maybe-costly kegging system to fix a problem few others have. If this were a good theory I'd think lots and lots of other people would have this problem. They don't.

I think there are a lot of reasons to keg (fill bottles with beer already carbed, less time-consuming than bottling, etc.), but IMO this is not one of them. FWIW, I have a keg system I assembled largely to be able to bottle already-carbed beer.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

Or maybe you just need a hydrometer.

 

[ocwo92]

If I were to guess I would say you are either incorrectly calculating and/or not mixing in the priming sugar; both of which would explain what is happening. Have you looked at this?

Yes, these were some of my original thoughts.

But I dare say that, e.g., 90-100 grams of sugar for a 5 gallon brew is relatively difficult to miscalculate, or even to mis-weigh (if nothing else, I've seen this amount of sugar often enough, so if I were to suddenly prepare a small mountain of sugar, I'd have noticed!), so I'm ruling out this possiblity.

Also, if I hadn't mixed the primary sugar properly into the beer, there would be a significant difference between the level of gushing in the bottles. But, it's the same level across all the bottles.

 

[ocwo92]

Or maybe you just need a hydrometer.

Nope. I have one, and I always measure my FG. I don't bottle beer until it has fully fermented.

 

[ocwo92]

I don't think this is why you're having gushers. If it were truly the case that a lot of suspended yeast is the cause of gushers, the easy solution is a high flocculation yeast and see if that makes a difference

I tend to agree, but I can't think of any other reason by now. None of the explanations usually offered for gushing seem to apply in my case, so I'm trying something entirely different. The only shared feature across my gushing beer is in fact the level of flocculation, so that's my best hypothesis at the moment. As it turns out, my currently kegged beer is something that came out as a gusher in the past. It has a low-flocculation yeast, and the only process difference is that I changed to a keg--and it's perfect.

FWIW, I have a keg system I assembled largely to be able to bottle already-carbed beer.

That's also one of my secondary reasons for kegging. I constructed a counter-pressure filler for that very reason.

 

[flars]

I don't think the problem with bottle gushers has anything to do with yeast. Almost every home brewer who bottled would be having this problem if the yeast was the cause.

The most likely causes of gushing bottles is infection in the bottles or bottling before fermentation was complete.

How long do you primary? Do you take at least two SG samples from the primary several days apart to confirm FG?

Are your bottles cleaned and then sanitized just before bottling? When you rack to the bottling bucket is trub also being siphoned?

How long and at what temperature are you bottle conditioning? How long do you chill the beer before sampling?

 

[Morrey]

Seems like I have had way more failures due to variables with bottling than with kegging. Provided you have decent still beer when kegging, the CO2 line will provide the rest for you. I tend to do the set and forget at the psi I plan to serve at versus being all over the place with boost carbing and the like. In your long version, I noted you turn the gas on and off daily making sure you don't have keg leaks. I test my empty kegs before use by applying gas and completely disconnecting the ball lock gas connect. I then go back a week later and see if there is good pressure in the keg. If there is a leak, I deal with it...if not, ready to fill. My magic statement in kegging....."keg lube rules"! Always use keg lube on your O rings which in many cases prevents leaking.

Long story short, and for my personal enjoyment, I just like kegging (and drinking kegged brews) better than bottling.

 

[ocwo92]

I don't think the problem with bottle gushers has anything to do with yeast. Almost every home brewer who bottled would be having this problem if the yeast was the cause.

Yes, and that's the objection that's boggling me the most. As for your questions:

How long do you primary? Do you take at least two SG samples from the primary several days apart to confirm FG?

Typically no less than a month for primary and secondary combined. And I do make multiple FG samples to ensure that fermentation has indeed completed.

Are your bottles cleaned and then sanitized just before bottling? When you rack to the bottling bucket is trub also being siphoned?

I clean my bottles by soaking them in hot soap water before scrubbing them with a bottle cleaner. Then I let them drip off and rinse them before soaking for five to ten minutes in a iodophor solution and then let them drip off on a sanitized rack. (As you can tell, my bottle cleaning takes a while but at least the bottles can soak on their own.)

I'm very sure bottle sanitation isn't the problem, however, because I should see at least some variation across the whole batch of bottles. Some bottles would be infected, others not. That is, unless I happened to be soaking them all in a bacterial solution, but I feel pretty confident the bottle with the sanitizer says "Iodophor" and not "Bacterial Culture."

The first bottle and the last one do occasionally get some trub into them, but that's all.

How long and at what temperature are you bottle conditioning? How long do you chill the beer before sampling?

This would seem to be the most likely candidate. Our basement is at a constant 18 degrees Celsius in the winter and 19 degrees in the summer, which should allow the yeast to fully convert the sugar within two or three weeks. (Typically in about two weeks, in my experience, but I'm well aware that significantly more time is often required.)

I typically then can't help sampling, and usually the beer is okay even if a little green. But the gushers I'm talking about are those that are still gushers months later when the CO2 should have been absorbed into the beer, even if I store them in a refrigerator for a few weeks.

I certainly appreciate your suggestions and help, but I've basically been through all of these typical reasons for gushing already and I can't make sense of it. That's why I'm trying a radical change in my brewing (or at least the bottling/storage) process to isolate where I'm failing. Oh, and I probably won't regret kegging--I feel confident that my secondary reasons for kegging are valid, too.

 

[Gavin C]

Your reasoning for gushing bottles related to trub is flawed.

Gushing bottles have 3 causes. Some or all of the following may be in play.

1. Bottling prior to fermentation being complete
2. Too much priming sugars added *
3. Infection

(* also can be from unequal distribution of priming sugars from bottle to bottle)

You stated the first and last bottle often have trub. if you are bottling correctly none should have trub.

• Prep priming soln
• Add it to bottling bucket
• Rack beer onto priming soln alowing the two to passively mix via a curl in the racking hose at the base of the bottling bucket
• Bottle from bucket using a bottling wand or wands.

This is standard bottling 101. Some images of same are here if you're interested. Probably not if you're already kegging.

Sounds to me like you are bottling directly from the fermentor and not using a bottling bucket. This means having to add the priming sugar to the fermentor which is problematic as.
1. It wont mix well leading to uneven carbonation across a batch.
2. Stirring the beer to mix priming soln can cause perceptible oxygenation.

While kegging is great, it should not be considered a fix to bad bottling technique. It just means your beer is not exposed to these pitfalls any longer.

 

[ocwo92]

Your reasoning for gushing bottles related to trub is flawed. ...

You stated the first and last bottle often have trub. if you are bottling correctly none should have trub.

Yes and no. The trub that manages to find its way into the bottles would have found its way into the bottling bucket, too, and from there into the bottles. The amount is miniscule anyway; it's only that I see faint haziness or a few impurities in the beer flowing into the first bottle if I haven't managed to flush enough trub from the fermenting bucket, or it is dumped into the last bottle (which I typically discard anyway, meaning "sampling") while I try to squeeze the last drop from the fermenter.

Sounds to me like you are bottling directly from the fermentor and not using a bottling bucket. This means having to add the priming sugar to the fermentor which is problematic as.
1. It wont mix well leading to uneven carbonation across a batch.
2. Stirring the beer to mix priming soln can cause perceptible oxygenation.

Indeed, and I've given this some thought earlier, weighing it against the risks of oxygenation and infection by racking to a bottling bucket. In practice I avoid these problems as follows: I prepare the priming solution, which I add to the beer. Then I wait for several hours, allowing the priming solution to diffuse into the beer without having to stir it, so there's no oxygenation from stirring. This part works adequately, because there's never any noticable difference between the amount of carbonation in the bottles.

While kegging is great, it should not be considered a fix to bad bottling technique. It just means your beer is not exposed to these pitfalls any longer.

Well, it certainly won't expose my beer to any errors I may be making while bottling which, after all, was the idea. I'll know if my gushing problems seem to stop, because then at least I'll know it was a bottling issue.

 

[BobOki]

So you are worried about infection due to using a bottling bucket, but you are using secondary fermenter? I would be more concerned about infection going to the 2nd bottle than the bottling bucket honestly. I have noticed that more people just say just leave in primary, I am in this camp at this point (unless there is a special reason for 2ndary), but I don't know anyone that tried to bottle from that, everyone uses bottling bucket.

Do you use a filter as well going from fermenter to bucket? I like to catch any extra junk I can.

 

[dye4me]

I clean my bottles by soaking them in hot soap water before scrubbing them with a bottle cleaner. Then I let them drip off and rinse them before soaking for five to ten minutes in a iodophor solution and then let them drip off on a sanitized rack.

Im not saying this is your problem but it might be worth a try:


I can't recall the exact reason as it was very long ago when i learned it, but I remember being told to never use "soap" on bottles as it will lead to carbonation and head retention problems. Maybe consider pbw as your cleaning agent, god knows its the only thing that gets all the soap off of my dishes in the dishwasher.

 

[Gavin C]

Yes and no. The trub that manages to find its way into the bottles would have found its way into the bottling bucket, too, and from there into the bottles.

Not if your process is solid.

Trub stays in the primary like so.

Racking

Initial Positioning of syphon well above trub

Trub remains undisturbed

I also do not follow the logic behind using a second vessel but avoidance of a bottling bucket to avoid oxygenation. Leaving the priming solution in the fermentor for hours is not a good way to ensure homogeneity of the beer and priming solution. This for me is one of the liklier reasons for your problems.

All the talk about trub here or there is beside the point. Your bottling methodology is seriously flawed in my view. That's the likely culprit.

Consistentcy and attention to the fundamental steps like racking will result in evenly and correctly carbonated beer. If you have trub in your bottles (not talking about a light dusting of yeast as is normal with bottle conditioning here) you should reexamine your process. It should tell you your doing things in a manner that is less than ideal.

The racking process and some other bits and pieces on clear beer are outlined here. Some of this will also improve your kegged beers.

Best of luck

 

[ocwo92]

So you are worried about infection due to using a bottling bucket, but you are using secondary fermenter?

Actually, no. After reading that racking to a secondary fermenter doesn't really improve the beer (or, rather, avoids degradation), I've stopped using a secondary fermenter except for lagers that remain in the fermenter for a long time.

Do you use a filter as well going from fermenter to bucket? I like to catch any extra junk I can.

No, and this might cause some impurities to end in the bottles. But the sediment in my bottes is generally very thin, so I'm not sure if filtering is required, and my beer tends to be very clear.

 

[ocwo92]

Consistentcy and attention to the fundamental steps like racking will result in evenly and correctly carbonated beer.

My beer certainly gets evenly carbonated so I think it's safe to say that adding the primer and waiting for a few hours adequately diffuses the primer into the beer.

If you have trub in your bottles (not talking about a light dusting of yeast as is normal with bottle conditioning here) you should reexamine your process. It should tell you your doing things in a manner that is less than ideal.

Oh, in that case I put it wrong: any trub is well covered below the yeast, and what happens to find its way into the beer is merely the upper layer of the yeast--the light dusting, as you put it.

So, I agree that my bottling method isn't necessarily conventional but on the other hand I have a hard time understanding why not racking the beer to an intermediate bucket prior to bottling would sometimes cause gushing (and to an equal extent in all of the bottles in a batch). If I had stirred the primer, disturbing the sediment and possibly airing the beer, then yes, but I avoid that entirely.

 

[ThePaleAler]

The only potential flaw I can see in your process is the waiting time after transferring to your bottling bucket. I always try and minimize the exposure time of my brew to air and thus potential organisms. Next time, if you do not keg all your brew in future, sanitize your bottling bucket together with your brewing spoon. After adding your boiled sugar solution and siphoning your brew on top simply give it a stir or two if you want to be sure, although this is not really necessary. Risk of oxidation is minimal if you are gentle.

Good Luck!

 

[broadbill]

The only potential flaw I can see in your process is the waiting time after transferring to your bottling bucket. I always try and minimize the exposure time of my brew to air and thus potential organisms. Next time, if you do not keg all your brew in future, sanitize your bottling bucket together with your brewing spoon. After adding your boiled sugar solution and siphoning your brew on top simply give it a stir or two if you want to be sure, although this is not really necessary. Risk of oxidation is minimal if you are gentle.

Good Luck!

I noted the prolonged wait in the OP's process as well. A few hours to let priming sugar equilibrate? That is a new one on me.

My standard process is to dump the priming sugar solution into the bottling bucket, rack the beer on top then bottle. No waiting.

I can't figure out why this would lead to gushers, but it is an easy enough of a fix to give it a shot and see if it helps.

 

[ocwo92]

The only potential flaw I can see in your process is the waiting time after transferring to your bottling bucket.

I thought about this at first, too, but at this stage in the brewing the yeast has become inactive and will need to wake up. The few hours of lag time waiting for the priming solution to diffuse into the beer will hardly matter. And, of course, I remember to put the lid back on the beer after adding the priming solution.