Why doesn't the hop character of my beers taste the same as commercial beers

[johnsoncurt1980]

Homebrewer for a couple years now, and for the most part pleased with my beer. Although I am satisfied, im still striving to make my next better than the last. What im focusing on right now is hop flavor/character. What I mean by that is when I make a all cascade beer it tastes very different than any commercial example of all cascade. My hops all seems muted/dull. I dont get that in your face grapefruit I am looking for. I have tried late hopping(dumping in lots of hops at flameout) then chill. I have tried hop stands as well. Both result in a similar flavor and aroma. I do dry hop as well. I am beginning to look elsewhere for my problem. What should I try next? Other source of hops, use RO water and treat with just some cal chloride and gypsum. Since my last batch I have began treating my mashes for PH as necessary.

 

[BrewWNC]

Hopback maybe?

What yeast? Do you cold crash? Bottle or keg?

Can we get a recipe?

Have you tried to clone a all cascade commercial beer and compared?

Without knowing some of the above, I'd say try a different hop supplier and type of hop (whole instead of pellet). But I'm not convinced this will have a major effect.

Maybe changing water is the way to go. May e adding a different hop variety that accents the cascade would do the trick.

 

[DSorenson]

Water chemistry will be key. Start messing with that and you will get there.

Also, many brewers use hop tea/extract after fermentation

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

I do not have a hopback at this time but not opposed to getting one at some point. For yeast I tend to use 1056 frequently. I do cold crash and bottle. To help, I will post a recipe in a bit.

 

[BigPerm]

Homebrewer for a couple years now, and for the most part pleased with my beer. Although I am satisfied, im still striving to make my next better than the last. What im focusing on right now is hop flavor/character. What I mean by that is when I make a all cascade beer it tastes very different than any commercial example of all cascade. My hops all seems muted/dull. I dont get that in your face grapefruit I am looking for. I have tried late hopping(dumping in lots of hops at flameout) then chill. I have tried hop stands as well. Both result in a similar flavor and aroma. I do dry hop as well. I am beginning to look elsewhere for my problem. What should I try next? Other source of hops, use RO water and treat with just some cal chloride and gypsum. Since my last batch I have began treating my mashes for PH as necessary.

You haven't provided enough information to properly assess your problem. Start with where you live (ie which municipal water supply you're on - provide a water profile if you can). Then give a recipe of something you thought would work that didn't. Also provide technique information. For example, do you filter? Crash cool? Control fermentation temp? So many factors, including your own personal perceptions, that make it impossible to help you yet.

 

[BigPerm]

Water chemistry will be key. Start messing with that and you will get there.

Also, many brewers use hop tea/extract after fermentation

While this is true, messing with water chemistry without knowing what you are doing is recipe for disaster. Or, at least, not gaining any valuable knowledge on how to get where you're going.

For example, I live in a municipality with a fantastic water supply. Moderate carbonate/bicarbonate and fairly low sulfate. When I make hoppy beers, I cut it in half with distilled, and add gypsum to try to get up to ~ 150 ppm. A little more sulfate will enhance the bitterness perception. This will differ entirely depending on where you are.

 

[DSorenson]

While this is true, messing with water chemistry without knowing what you are doing is recipe for disaster. Or, at least, not gaining any valuable knowledge on how to get where you're going.

For example, I live in a municipality with a fantastic water supply. Moderate carbonate/bicarbonate and fairly low sulfate. When I make hoppy beers, I cut it in half with distilled, and add gypsum to try to get up to ~ 150 ppm. A little more sulfate will enhance the bitterness perception. This will differ entirely depending on where you are.

Since apparently I wasn't clear enough and no one has faith in others to do some research...

Start learning about water chemistry and your beers will improve.

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

Water report
Ph 8.96
Alkalinity CaCO3 108
Sodium 72
Sulfate 55
Calcium 41
Chloride 32
Hardness 9 grains CaCO3
Magnesium 13

Example recipe that didnt quite meet expectations.
cascade pale ale
6 gallons
OG 1.067
FG 1.14
45 Ibu

4.8oz acid malt
3.8oz carapils
1lb crystal 75
13.75lbs 2 row
1.25oz cascade 30min
1.25oz cascade 10 min
2.5oz at flameout and 30 minute whirlpool
2oz dry hop in secondary

Fermented in primary for 2 weeks
2 weeks in secondary dry hopped at day 4 in secondary. Cold crashed day 12-14. Bottled

 

[BigPerm]

Since apparently I wasn't clear enough and no one has faith in others to do some research...

Start learning about water chemistry and your beers will improve.

It's complicated. I'm a chemist and I don't always get it right. Just suggesting to change your water isnt that helpful.

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

I know its only a pale ale, so it wont be a hop bomb but relatively speaking it had very little hop aroma and flavor

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

Not only is the hop character weak, my cascade doesnt taste like other cascade beers.

 

[BigPerm]

Water report
Ph 8.96
Alkalinity CaCO3 108
Sodium 72
Sulfate 55
Calcium 41
Chloride 32
Hardness 9 grains CaCO3
Magnesium 13

Example recipe that didnt quite meet expectations.
cascade pale ale
6 gallons
OG 1.067
FG 1.14
45 Ibu

4.8oz acid malt
3.8oz carapils
1lb crystal 75
13.75lbs 2 row
1.25oz cascade 30min
1.25oz cascade 10 min
2.5oz at flameout and 30 minute whirlpool
2oz dry hop in secondary

Fermented in primary for 2 weeks
2 weeks in secondary dry hopped at day 4 in secondary. Cold crashed day 12-14. Bottled

Where did your pH end up after the acid malt addition?

In general the recipe looks ok. I would personally up the dry hop, but thats up to personal preference. Also, cascade has lower acids than other hops, so you may need to increase a little more to get that big hop character you are looking for.

The biggest issue appears to be that your sulfate is a bit low. I'd add a few grams of gypsum, say 5-6, to your water. Use software to try to get into the 150ppm range. Brew the same recipe and see how it differs. You can also try to dilute with distilled a bit, which will lower the pH and reduce the carbonates.

Good luck!

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

Ph was 5.43 30 min into mash

 

[BigPerm]

Ph was 5.43 30 min into mash

After the acid malt addition? That's still pretty high. 5.2 would be ideal. Try diluting with distilled water next time and bring up the sulfate with gypsum. You'll find yourself in a better range.

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

Appreciate all the help

 

[cjgenever]

I'd look at the water chemistry. A little gypsum can go a long way to making hop flavors pop. It is also important to have a decently fresh hop for late additions.

I use somewhat hard municipal water. Since I started adding a proper amount of gypsum I've been getting better flavor

 

[gregoreckbrews]

Other people may not have had the same experience, but I have not been able to get good hop character in my bottle conditioned IPAs. Only the keg conditioned IPAs have come out as expected. Once I had a Double IPA where half was kegged and half was bottled. The kegged half was one of the best beers I have made. The bottled half was just okay: Muddled hop aroma and flavor. Reminds me of what the OP was describing.

I'm not trying to say that you can't produce a good IPA with bottle conditioning, but I have not had success.

 

[Roundhouse]

When are you adding the gypsum? I only add it to the kettle during the boil.

 

[Homercidal]

When are you adding the gypsum? I only add it to the kettle during the boil.

Ideally you would add enough gypsum (and other salts) to the mash water, in order to get the mash pH into a range the enzymes like.

The rest of the salts needed to enhance flavor could be added to the sparge water or Boil Kettle as you see fit.

 

[Roundhouse]

I treat all of my brewing water with phosphoric acid to 5.5 before even starting. I add a pinch of Calcium Chloride in the mash just to get some calcium in the mash. I only use gypsum in the kettle for flavoring. It doesn't do much in the mash. Some of the minerals added to the mash don't fully make it to the kettle.

 

[BreezyBrew]

How fresh are your hops?

 

[negativereaction]

Maybe it's worth asking about the condition of your hops? Do you keep them nicely frozen and vacuum packed until you use them? And they're relatively new/fresh?

[Edit: Another FL guy beat me by a minute or two on this angle]

 

[cjgenever]

My water is pretty good for most brews. I add a little gypsum in the boil for my ipa's to pop the hop flavors. It's not a big difference, but it helps. I have to cut my water with distilled and adjust the chemistry in the mash for brews requiring softer water

 

[beersk]

I think the high sodium content of the water might be taking away from that as well. Generally, you don't want to go above 50ppm sodium. I'd up the sulfate as well to 100ppm or even 200ppm.

But, a lot of factors are in the freshness of your hops, as another stated. Whether they're vacuum sealed, what temp you're fermenting at, and how much you're using. I think at 1.067 OG with 45 IBU, you aren't going to get a lot of hop character there.

 

[kpr121]

I think at 1.067 OG with 45 IBU, you aren't going to get a lot of hop character there.

Agreed with this. You aren’t going to get that ‘in your face grapefruit’ with 2.5 oz of hops in the boil. I’d suggest using a dedicated bittering hop at 45 or 60 minutes. Other things to look at are decreasing the amount of crystal/specialty grains used, and/or mashing a bit lower to increase your hop to malt ratio. 1.014 isn’t really high per say, but getting down to near 1.010 would give more of a perceived hoppiness.

 

[KafkasRevenge]

Would it be crazy of me to say inspect your bottling practices? I'm assuming you are being very careful to avoid introducing oxygen into your beer post-fermentation, but oxygenation could cause a drop-off in hop flavor.

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

I'm pretty anal about introducing oxygen. I'm not sure how I could improve on that process. As far as hop freshness, I have wondered for awhile if I have fresh hops. I buy hops from the lhbs for each batch so I assume they are fresh as last years crop. they mostly carry hopunion. Are there packaged dates on them?

My next beer I will incorporate more water adjustments, whether starting from RO or diluting with RO I'm not yet sure. I am going to go for a higher sulfate.

I also think less crystal and lower FG is a smart idea.

 

[johnsoncurt1980]

For comparison, would anyone recommend a hop supplier that I should try?

 

[cjgenever]

For comparison, would anyone recommend a hop supplier that I should try?

I've had great experiences with nikobrew. Flat rate shipping, so I buy a lot at once. Co2 and a vacuum sealer are helpful when repackaging. I use the wife's soda stream for Co2.

 

[riderkb]

Just looking at your recipe I would say that you have plenty of late hops but they are getting lost in a too-sweet beer. If a beer isn't bitter enough it won't seem very hoppy. I would switch to a high alpha acid for the bittering, mash at a lower temp, pitch more yeast, and/or oxygenate more thoroughly.


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