Why does my tripel have poor head retention?

[weirdboy]

My latest batch of tripel has really poor head retention. The initial head is exactly what you'd expect for a Belgian, but it's completely gone after a minute or two. The other thing that is "wrong" with it is that I deliberately fermented it a little cool (68F) for the first couple of days) because I was trying to get more banana notes in it. That part worked really well, in fact possibly too well because I really don't get much in the way of cloves/spicy. Although it is still really delicious it's not necessarily to style. Is there a chance the fermentation temp had some effect on the head? Normally I ferment higher and don't run into trouble. There is also the possibility that the mash temp was too low; I started the mash at 152F and got on a telecon, and by the time it was done it was going on an hour and a half and the temp had dropped to 148F or so.

Anyway, if anyone has tips for improving the head on this, I'd love to hear them.


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - BeerSmith Brewing Software, Recipes, Blog, Wiki and Discussion Forum
Recipe: Tres Equis v2.0
Brewer: wb
Asst Brewer:
Style: Belgian Tripel
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (31.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.41 gal
Estimated OG: 1.080 SG
Estimated Color: 6.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 33.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
11.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 78.57 %
1.50 lb Wheat Malt, Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 10.71 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 30L (30.0 SRM) Grain 3.57 %
2.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 29.1 IBU
1.00 oz Saaz 2009/05/27 [2.80 %] (15 min) Hops 4.0 IBU
0.50 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1.00 lb Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 7.14 %
1 Pkgs Belgian Ale (Wyeast Labs #1214) [Starter 1Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 13.00 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
75 min Mash In Add 16.25 qt of water at 165.9 F 152.0 F
10 min Mash Out Add 9.10 qt of water at 196.6 F 168.0 F


Notes:
------
Pitched onto Wyeast 1214 yeast cake from Wit batch, that I had washed the previous day with boiled/chilled water. Covered fermenter with aluminum foil, and placed lid loosely on top.

Fermented @68F for first two days, then allowed to rise to 71F
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[menschmaschine]

I don't think your mash temp or ferm. temp had anything to do with it. You used Belgian 2-row pilsener (probably Dingeman's?) and that should have been fine with the total protein, soluble protein, and your mash temps.

Nothing in your post jumps out at me so I'll throw this out there... lipids. Check out this post I wrote before about lipids, causes and effects and see if anything jumps out at you about your process.

 

[Judochop]

Giving this thread a good defib.

[CLEAR!!!]

I’ve brewed a tripel, a (Belgian) blonde, a golden strong, a dubbel, and a saison. Head retention ratings on these beers ranged from fair, to poor, to none.

I’ve brewed stouts, APAs, IPAs, Weizens, bitters and various other British styles, and head retention has ranged from at least fair up to great.

The one common difference between the two categories, at least that I can see, is my use of adjunct sugar. As it appears to me, if I add sugar, I lose head.

2 questions:

• Can anyone back me up on this, either through academic knowledge or personal experience?
• Can anyone help me fix the problem?

 

[TyTanium]

Glassware?

 

[Soma]

I don't recall any of my favorite Tripels having very good head retention, so maybe it's not an issue?

 

[Yooper]

A protein rest for grain bills with a higher percentage of pilsner malt? I assume that one wasn't done?

 

[Judochop]

Glassware?

True, that I serve my belgian-style beers in different glasses than I serve my english, or american, or whatnot. But all of my glassware gets cleaned and stored the same, so that would really be a frightening coincidence. (I'd call it a curse, in fact.)

Unless you are saying that a goblet-style glass won't hold a head as long as a tulip-style or flute, in which case that is definitely a fair point. However, my retention for these types of beers is shortlived even in the narrowest of glasses.

I don't recall any of my favorite Tripels having very good head retention, so maybe it's not an issue?

You mean the commercial versions? I'm not sure about that. I recall having to pour Duvel in 3 different stages b/c the head billows up through the tulip and poureth over before the bottle is emptied.

A protein rest for grain bills with a higher percentage of pilsner malt? I assume that one wasn't done?

No protein rests. No difference in my procedures from one beer to the next. All one-step infusion mashes, in the neighborhood of 148-156.

 

[Yooper]

No protein rests. No difference in my procedures from one beer to the next. All one-step infusion mashes, in the neighborhood of 148-156.

Try a very short, high temperature protease rest, like at 131 degrees. I've noticed when I use Weyermann or even Castle pilsner malt, I get better head retention with a decoction or step mashing with a short protein rest.

 

[smokinghole]

I tend to think it's a pH issue rather than a mashing issue.

 

[weirdboy]

Try a very short, high temperature protease rest, like at 131 degrees. I've noticed when I use Weyermann or even Castle pilsner malt, I get better head retention with a decoction or step mashing with a short protein rest.

I thought the opposite was supposed to be the case. That is, the protease in a protein rest breaks down the medium-length proteins that aid head formation and retention.

 

[Dougie63]

do you wash your glassware with detergent? that could be a cause

 

[Kate00]

Giving this thread a good defib.

[CLEAR!!!]

I’ve brewed a tripel, a (Belgian) blonde, a golden strong, a dubbel, and a saison. Head retention ratings on these beers ranged from fair, to poor, to none.

I’ve brewed stouts, APAs, IPAs, Weizens, bitters and various other British styles, and head retention has ranged from at least fair up to great.

The one common difference between the two categories, at least that I can see, is my use of adjunct sugar. As it appears to me, if I add sugar, I lose head.

2 questions:

• Can anyone back me up on this, either through academic knowledge or personal experience?
• Can anyone help me fix the problem?

I have had the same issue. I brewed a brown with some added corn sugar (extract batch) which tastes fantastic but no head retention, and also a tripel (all-grain) which has no head retention. The tripel is still a little young, it's been bottled for about 3 weeks. Other batches have carbed up faster than that and head retention has been great.

Should we be increasing priming sugar because of the adjunct sugars?

 

[Judochop]

I tend to think it's a pH issue rather than a mashing issue.

pH of the final beer, you mean? How can I control that?

I thought the opposite was supposed to be the case. That is, the protease in a protein rest breaks down the medium-length proteins that aid head formation and retention.

That is my understanding as well.

 

[BobC]

I routinely use a rest at 133 with high gravity beers and it does help with head retention. I also notice that instead of a single rest at 154 I split it with a rest at 145 and another rest at 165 my body and head retention improve as well.

 

[smokinghole]

Whats your home water like? If the water is extremely hard then its raising the pH of your beer out of the optimal range for head forming proteins. So for the extract brewers it's not a case of the mash because the extract manufacturer is already taking care of that. If your water has a higher than 7 pH that's my guess on what's happening. It's not the priming sugar or adjunct, it's pH. All protein activity is dependent on pH and temperature. Alcohol level changes pH, and water minerals will impact your pH. When I don't feel like busting out my pH meter I blindly follow the water chemistry primer when using reverse osmosis water. The adjustments I make will push my mash in to the ideal range, and the final beer will be around 4.5 or so. There's a sweet spot for these proteins too low and head retention sucks also. Just look at sour beers, how many do you know of that have billowing heads? None that I've drank.

So I don't think it's a protein rest problem, adjunct problem, or priming sugar problem. If you really want crazy head retention get some isoHop extract. That stuff makes any foam like whipped cream. I think Bamforth discusses that being used in MGD or Miller High Life. Which ever one it is, it was at one point used as a standard to measure against for head retention because of hop extract usage.

 

[smokinghole]

pH of the final beer, you mean? How can I control that?

You'd have to take pH measurements in your kettle. Some belgian breweries add food grade acid to the kettle for proper pH. You can also check your mash pH if you had the ability to measure. Many belgian beers are the poster child for beer foam and I suspect its a keen attention to pH.

 

[Randar]

I thought the opposite was supposed to be the case. That is, the protease in a protein rest breaks down the medium-length proteins that aid head formation and retention.

From Kai's website:

If the malt is a well modified modern malt, the protein rest temperature should be kept closer to 133 *F (55 *C) and the next decoction should be pulled 5 - 10 minutes after the rest temperature has been reached. This serves to protect more of the medium chained proteins that are important for body and head retention.

 

[Randar]

Should we be increasing priming sugar because of the adjunct sugars?

NO! Although tripels and doubles have a characteristically higher carbonation level.

 

[Randar]

So I don't think it's a protein rest problem, adjunct problem, or priming sugar problem.

I agree. I am starting to lean towards pH. Withouth any crystal malt, roasted malt, etc, unless you are treating your water, it seems you are highly unlikely to reach the same (lower) pH as the second OP's.

I also happen to know (roughly) what Judo's water is like because we get it from the same aquifer (Lake Michigan), and styles without sufficient roasted or dark crystal are going to be in the 5.6 or higher range of pH in many cases.

 

[Randar]

Judo, get the EZ Water Calculator Spreadsheet 2.0 and plug the following numbers in for your water:

Calcium - 33
Magnesium - 12
Sodium - 8
Chloride - 14
Sulfate - 28
Alkalinity (CaCO3 ppm) - 103

Then you can see a rough approximation of your pH. I measure with a nice temp-correcting pH meter and this spreadsheet has put me pretty damn close (within .05 typically) for a wide array of styles with our water profile. I typically only add a little Calcium Chloride and Gypsum in combination to get the desired Cl:SO4 ratio. I also typically do not adjust my sparge water, but YMMV.


Try brewing again and see if this resolves your issues.

 

[afr0byte]

Judo, get the EZ Water Calculator Spreadsheet 2.0 and plug the following numbers in for your water:

Calcium - 33
Magnesium - 12
Sodium - 8
Chloride - 14
Sulfate - 28
Alkalinity (CaCO3 ppm) - 103

Then you can see a rough approximation of your pH. I measure with a nice temp-correcting pH meter and this spreadsheet has put me pretty damn close (within .05 typically) for a wide array of styles with our water profile. I typically only add a little Calcium Chloride and Gypsum in combination to get the desired Cl:SO4 ratio. I also typically do not adjust my sparge water, but YMMV.


Try brewing again and see if this resolves your issues.

In case your message isn't a typo, there is an EZ Water 3.0 now that is more accurate. Also, since you specifically mentioned that you have a temp-correcting pH meter, presumably you know that you should measure your pH values at, or at least close to, 25C? The actual pH changes with temperature, not just the reading.

 

[Randar]

In case your message isn't a typo, there is an EZ Water 3.0 now that is more accurate.

Yes, I do know this, but have used the 2.0 version and with my water it has been plenty-accurate for my means thus far. I've not tried the 3.0 version so I can't speak to it, so I didn't.

Also, since you specifically mentioned that you have a temp-correcting pH meter, presumably you know that you should measure your pH values at, or at least close to, 25C? The actual pH changes with temperature, not just the reading.

I don't follow. Yes, the temp-correcting part was superfluous and useless information in this context, but so long as I am referencing the same range (comparing my temp-corrected reading to the pH at room temp expectation) or via measuring at mash temp and comparing against expected pH range at mash temp, it is one and the same. No? A conversion factor may be required, but it's the same thing as far as I know.

 

[afr0byte]

Yes, I do know this, but have used the 2.0 version and with my water it has been plenty-accurate for my means thus far. I've not tried the 3.0 version so I can't speak to it, so I didn't.


I don't follow. Yes, the temp-correcting part was superfluous and useless information in this context, but so long as I am referencing the same range (comparing my temp-corrected reading to the pH at room temp expectation) or via measuring at mash temp and comparing against expected pH range at mash temp, it is one and the same. No?

3.0 has been more accurate in my experience, especially with dark beers. Plus it recommends a different pH range (5.4-5.6 at room temp).

As far as the temperature correction. For one, from what I've read the temperature correction is often only rated up to about 130. Second, yes if your probe can measure accurately (and temp-correct accurately) at ~150, then you can compare the pH to the optimum mash temperature pH values. However, the higher temperature is going to be hard on your pH meter. In addition, no you can't compare the temp-corrected reading to an expected reading at room temperature. The actual pH at mash temperature is going to be lower. The meter will use its temperature correction to make sure the pH is accurately measured at the particular temperature, but that doesn't account for the fact hat the actual pH changed.

 

[Judochop]

Judo, get the EZ Water Calculator Spreadsheet 2.0 and plug the following numbers in for your water:

Calcium - 33
Magnesium - 12
Sodium - 8
Chloride - 14
Sulfate - 28
Alkalinity (CaCO3 ppm) - 103

Hey Randar. This is really good stuff, so thank you. Even better to hear from someone who shares my water. I am in fact brewing a Golden Strong tomorrow, hence my original post here. Would you mind taking a peek and checking my figures?

11.25 lb Belgian Pils
1.25 lb Weyermann Wheat malt

Mashing w/ 4.5 gallons (~1.44 qt/lb)
Single-Batch sparge with 4.75 gallons of sparge water. (.93 gallons as top off/mash out, then 3.85 gallons for single sparge.)

If I'm making sense of this EZ Water Calc spreadsheet, I adjusted by adding the following to the mash:

6g - Gypsum
6g - CaCl2
3 oz - Acidulated malt (1.5%)

I get a PH of 5.58 in the mash, and, according to palmer, everything is in range/balanced.

Does that sound about right? I don't have a pH meter, so I'd be going on faith here. I don't want to do anything crazy just so I can admire my foam.

 

[smokinghole]

I go with a straight 2% of acid malt in all my beers with reverse osmosis water (when I'm not doing pH measurements). So your water isn't real hard but another 0.5-1% of acidulated might help you out.

 

[Judochop]

I go with a straight 2% of acid malt in all my beers with reverse osmosis water (when I'm not doing pH measurements). So your water isn't real hard but another 0.5-1% of acidulated might help you out.

So, mash pH can be adjusted with water treatment, or with acidulated malt.

Question: when/why to use one over the other, or a combination of both?

Are there not semi-significant differences between the two methods? I mean, obviously adding malt will change your OG, albeit not much at these amounts. But on top of that, I imagine the acid malt plays a part in the flavor, enhancing sourness/tang and I don't imagine (though I really don't know) that adding gypsum and the like to acheive the same pH has as dramatic an effect to the beer flavor.

 

[Randar]

3.0 has been more accurate in my experience, especially with dark beers. Plus it recommends a different pH range (5.4-5.6 at room temp).

Just gave it a trial run at lunch and I do like it and will try it on my next few brews. I like being able to break down the grist with a bit more granularity.

As far as the temperature correction. For one, from what I've read the temperature correction is often only rated up to about 130. Second, yes if your probe can measure accurately (and temp-correct accurately) at ~150, then you can compare the pH to the optimum mash temperature pH values. However, the higher temperature is going to be hard on your pH meter.

I see. Yes, mine is accurate in the range of 0-70C

In addition, no you can't compare the temp-corrected reading to an expected reading at room temperature. The actual pH at mash temperature is going to be lower. The meter will use its temperature correction to make sure the pH is accurately measured at the particular temperature, but that doesn't account for the fact hat the actual pH changed.

I understood that it changes with temp but I thought that was what the conversion factor was and valid in the range of mash pH... Hungh. Now I'm confused, LOL! Do you have a link/reference to point me to? I am curious but also lazy.

Hey Randar. This is really good stuff, so thank you. Even better to hear from someone who shares my water. I am in fact brewing a Golden Strong tomorrow, hence my original post here. Would you mind taking a peek and checking my figures?

11.25 lb Belgian Pils
1.25 lb Weyermann Wheat malt

Mashing w/ 4.5 gallons (~1.44 qt/lb)
Single-Batch sparge with 4.75 gallons of sparge water. (.93 gallons as top off/mash out, then 3.85 gallons for single sparge.)

If I'm making sense of this EZ Water Calc spreadsheet, I adjusted by adding the following to the mash:

6g - Gypsum
6g - CaCl2
3 oz - Acidulated malt (1.5%)

I get a PH of 5.58 in the mash, and, according to palmer, everything is in range/balanced.

Does that sound about right? I don't have a pH meter, so I'd be going on faith here. I don't want to do anything crazy just so I can admire my foam.

Just tried it on ver3.0 and I get a touch higher than what you are getting.

Did you include your mash-out addition as part of the sparge water (it should be)? Also, make sure you moved the bicarbonate button down to alkalinity as that was the measurement report value.

You can up the CaCl a touch to 8 or 9 g, as I usually end up with about 20-30% more CaCl additions than gypsum to get the desired mineral balance and Cl:SO4 ratio

And one last thing. On very light beers like yours, you are pretty hard pressed to bring the pH down any more than you are without really adding a lot of minerals or upping the acidulated malt a bit more (you could go to the prescribed 3% of grist value - 6 oz in your case - to hit the middle of the pH range). This is why some use lactic or phosphoric acid en lieu of or in addition to the acidulated malt.

 

[Judochop]

Just tried it on ver3.0 and I get a touch higher than what you are getting.

I am using 3.0 as well.

Did you include your mash-out addition as part of the sparge water (it should be)? Also, make sure you moved the bicarbonate button down to alkalinity as that was the measurement report value.

Check and check.

You can up the CaCl a touch to 8 or 9 g, as I usually end up with about 20-30% more CaCl additions than gypsum to get the desired mineral balance and Cl:SO4 ratio

Gypsum set to 6g
CaCl set to 9g
Acid malt set to 2 oz (1% of grist)
pH now approx. @ 5.59. Just in range.

(you could go to the prescribed 3% of grist value - 6 oz in your case - to hit the middle of the pH range). This is why some use lactic or phosphoric acid en lieu of or in addition to the acidulated malt.

Why? What kind of flavor impact differences are we talking about; minerals vs. acid malt vs. liquid acid?

With the last Golden Strong I did, I did end up using about 6 oz of acid malt, and I believe the souring effect was noticable. So I'd like to dial that back this time if I can.

 

[Yooper]

I wouldn't want to use gypsum in a Belgian beer. I didn't run the spreadsheet, but I can't see the need to raise the sulfate level in this beer. I'd also be cautious about the amount of CaCl2, and consider using acid malt up to 3% of the grain bill if the reason for all those additions is simply pH adjustment.

 

[Randar]

I wouldn't want to use gypsum in a Belgian beer. I didn't run the spreadsheet, but I can't see the need to raise the sulfate level in this beer. I'd also be cautious about the amount of CaCl2, and consider using acid malt up to 3% of the grain bill if the reason for all those additions is simply pH adjustment.

Run the spreadsheet on those numbers I posted... our water is very low in minerals like calcium/magn.

Otherwise I am curious why you are so hesitant given that is still WELL within typical expected range for all components considered.