Why can't I get it right?

[cyberjoey80]

Hi all. Alright, damn it!! I have made about 6 batches of beer since moving from my crappy little MR. Beer kit and have slowly accumulated a lot of beer making devices. I even got a keg system (which I just tapped for the first keg batch) and, surprise...it still taste sweet. All my batches have been malt extract (thinking about AG soon).Every batch has had a sweet smell and aftertaste to it. I thought it was water so I switched to filtered water. Then I bought an o2 system to infuse it. That did'nt help. Then I thought it was temperature so I kept this latest batch (IPA) under strict temp control of 70degrees according to yeast guidelines. Had very very active fermentation as I even had a yeast starter. It began bubbling within 10 hours. Gave 3 weeks in secondary. Carbonated with CO2 over 7 days. I know my sanitation is immaculate. WTF? Basically I would never buy this beer if it were on store shelves. It doesn't taste offensive, like bacteria, it is just sweet with a sweet smell, not like an IPA. Even my copper ale smelled and tasted the same. It's like no matter what I do, every beer taste the same. Am I Stupid? Does extract brewing just produce sweeter flavors? I don't want to give up this hobby but damn it...all this work, time, money and every batch is somewhat dissappointing. Oh yeah, my hydrometer readings are right on as well (with the recipe sheets I am using) If you have any ideas please throw em my way. Thanks.

 

[Buford]

Are you not using enough bittering hops to balance out the residual malt sweetness? Post your recipies and procedure so we can troubleshoot it.

 

[cyberjoey80]

I don't think thats the problem because I usually buy the supplies from online or my LHBS and use a premade recipe, since I am fairly new to this. Anyway, this last IPA had about 2.5 oz of hops all together and most of those were Cascade hops for bittering. I would have to find the recipe sheet again or get my other computer out since I keep everything on there. However, most of the kits I have bought were customer favorites and I have followed the directions to a T. I am wondering if maybe it is the Idophor i use to sanitize. I mix 1 oz in 5 gallons of tap water and soak anything (even my brew pot) before it makes contact with the beer. I then give everything a quick spray down when it comes out of the sanitation, just to make sure it is all off. Maybe to much Idophor?

 

[Brewsmith]

Other than the bittering hops, you might want to try a different extract. Fermentability can vary from different producers. I suspect you are using liquid extract??? If you are, try dry malt extract.

 

[homebrewer_99]

FYI, ALL MALT IS SWEET!! It's up to you to add just the right amount of bittering hops to balance the flavors.

Post your recipe and maybe we can help you better, but for now, I am certain I am correct.

As for spraying the sanitation fluid off of your equipment that's not necessary. You're only re-contaminating (not really) it again. Leave the Iodophor on there or let it drip dry.

Be sure to post that recipe. That's the key to getting the right answer to your problem.

 

[Brewtopia]

Yes, hard to troubleshoot without a recipe. I use Iodopher to sanitize with no ill effects. One thing I did do however was switch from LME to DME for my extract brews and I noticed a big improvement in the overall quality of the beers. Once I moved on to steeping grains and partial mash, they got even better. Please post your recipe when you get a chance as that will help us to diagnose where the problem might be. The main thing is Relax and don't give up. Once you make that beer that tastes better than anything you've ever had before, you'll be hooked for life!

 

[Reverend JC]

The only solution i can think of is to add more bittering hops. If cascade is not doing it add something with a bit higher AA% like chinook, or warrior.

Perhaps the LHBS you go to likes his beer on the sweet side and as such puts kits together that way.

How long are you boiling your wort and hops for?

Post your recipe and boil schedule and maybe we can help you.

 

[Beer Snob]

I agree... post the recipe... its very hard to give suggestions without such basic information. Oh and from the sounds of it you can stop buying things now really Sounds like you have more then enough stuff to make some incredible beer! Lets get the sweet beer problem out of the way first.

 

[McCall St. Brewer]

Maybe you just don't like homebrew. Have you tasted any that others have made? Do you like beer from brewpubs?

Anyway, as everyone else has said, post your recipe(s).

 

[cyberjoey80]

Ok everyone, thanks a lot for taking time to help w/ my prob. Seems the receipe is important so I dug it out along with my cooking method and beginning hydrometer reading.

OCTANE I.P.A.
Octane IPA. This high octane kit is superbly rich in both hop and malt character. Adding 2 ounces of Oak Chips during secondary fermentation will present a faint woodiness that must of have been present in the original IPAs that were sent to British troops in oak casks while stationed in India. Our Minneapolis customers make this kit our number one seller. Ingredients for this recipe include 6 pounds of Gold malt extract, 3.3 pounds Amber malt extract, 1/2 pound of specialty grain, 4 ounces of hops, oak chips, yeast, priming sugar and a grain bag. Octane IPA w/ Munton's 6 gm dry yeast

How brewed:
1. Obviously clean/ sanitize everything
2. Crushed grains boiled at 155 (I did my at 170-180 degrees by mistake...did'nt know flame was still on) for 10-30 min (did mine for 30 min). Remove flame and let grains sit 5-10 min (did mine for 10 min).
3. Add malt extract, stir.
4. Restart flame, as soon as boil starts, add 2 oz cascade hops for at least 60 min (did mine for 75 min)
5. In last 30 min of boil, add 1oz of Willamette bittering hops.
6. In last 2 min of boil, add 1 oz Kent Goldings aroma hops then take off burner.
Cool wort add to cool water in fermenter, top off to 5 gallons.
7. Beginning hydrometer reading 1.072.

 

[Brewtopia]

This looks like a lot of extract to me (close to 10lbs with the steeping grains) with 4 oz. of what I would consider low AAU hops. I would definitely brew this beer with another couple ounces of Amarillo, Simcoe or Warrior for bittering. Dry hopping in the secondary would help as well.

 

[Brewtopia]

Also, do you know what the attentuation is for that strain of yeast? I usually use Wyeast 1056 California Ale for my IPAs as it attentuates out really well. I also add a teaspoon of gypsum which I think helps to accentuate the hop profile.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Thanks for posting the recipe, but it would help better to know the AA% of the hops. Even if they were only 3.5% it seems that would have been enough since you used 2 oz in the beginning.

It could be your 9 lbs of malt was too much for your 4 oz of hops, but like I said it depends on the AAs.

With that said, I rarely use more than 2 oz of hops for 6 lbs of malt at about 3.8%.

 

[cyberjoey80]

Thanks again for helping guys. Anyway, I used White Labs British ALe Yeast. Attenuation is 67-74% (although I am not quite sure what that means. I read it but forgot. I will have to go back to my book and read again.)
Optimum fermination temp is 65-70deg.

HOPS:
Cascade Avg A.A. 5.6%
Kent Goldings Avg A.A. 5.7%
Williamette Avg A.A. 3.9%

 

[Blender]

How much wort did you boil? That is a lot of extract and just one vial of WL yeast might not be able to do a proper job of fermentation. I have learned that to make better beer you need a good amount of yeast pitched into a healthy wort that has plenty of O2 and then maintain the temperature in at least the middle of the recommended range.
I don't think the iodaphor is a problem but you only need to dilute it at one tablespoon per 5 gallons. You did yours at twice the amount necessary. Don't give up,learn from each batch and things will get better.

 

[cyberjoey80]

I boiled about 2.5-3.0 gallons of water with the wort but I did use a very active yeast starter. One thing I thought was weird is that I tried the beer before just before it went from secondary to the keg and it tasted pretty good..not to sweet at all. It seems like it happened some time in the process of carbonating. Maybe I just tried to small of a sample.

 

[homebrewer_99]

...Attenuation is 67-74% (although I am not quite sure what that means. I read it but forgot...Optimum fermination temp is 65-70deg...

HOPS: Cascade Avg A.A. 5.6% Kent Goldings Avg A.A. 5.7% Williamette Avg A.A. 3.9%

Attenuation is basically the amount of sugars in your brew that can ferment and become alcohol. At 67% that's pretty low which will leave your beer sweet. But knowing how much hops to add eliminates that chance. Next time try for 75-77% and your beer will be better.

Your AAs are OK. How much water did you boil. The more water you boiled the less bittering hops came out in the boil. Oddly enough, the less water and malt you boil the more hop bitterness is extracted from the hops.

Now would be a good time to search on making a hop tea.

By any chance did you ferment above 72F? Could be your brew is actually "fruity" and not "sweet". Your brew will become fruity at higher fermenting temps. A nice concentrated hop tea would work good here.

 

[cyberjoey80]

There is a chance that the beer was exposed to slightly over 72deg during fermentation but not for that long. It sounds like I may have maybe boiled to much water when I was making the wort. I did'nt think that could be a problem as some people brew their full batch in a big kettle instead of adding a couple of gallons of wort to a couple gallons of cool water. I will surely take into account everything you guys have said before making my next batch and probably try a dry malt extract. Come to think of it, my first batch was not near as sweet (still slightly but I was fermenting in the 80deg range) and it was a kit in a box with DME. I think DME coupled with more exacting temps and better attention to yeast and hops info will help out a lot. I really want to eventually switch to AG brewing but not until I can nail this process down. Thanks again for helping, really appreciate it.

 

[aseelye]

In addition to needing a higher AA% hops for bittering, the partial wort boil reduces the ability of the water to absorb the oils from the hops. Feeding your recipe into Brewsmith and using default values for the hops, I get an IBU of 28.7, well below the 40-65 listed in the style guidelines. Upping to a full wort boil would up your IBUs to 52.8. Another thing you could do would be to add the malt in the last 15 mins or so, that may be similar to what homebrewer99 was talking about, but I'm not certain, I've never made a hop tea myself so couldn't guarantee that's what it is.

 

[ayrton]

Attenuation is 67-74%

That could be part of your problem. Use WLP001 California Ale Yeast next time and see if that helps. British and Irish ale yeasts tend to have lower attenuation rates, leaving you with residual sugar.

 

[dcbrewmeister]

Couple things - You are not doing a full wort boil, so you don't really need to boil it longer (you said you did the boil for 75 minutes, and not 60). Full wort boil is the best way to do it, but if you're doing it on a stove, sometimes it's hard to get 5+ gals to boil, my stove takes ~40min.

The AAU's do seem kinda low, especially for a partial wort boil and an IPA. Another way if you can't get 5gals to boil all at once (especially with extract) is to split the ingrediants into 2 pots and boil both at the same time, then mix them into your fermenter. It will affect the color (makes it darker IIRC), but it's closer to a full wort boil then ~3gal and topping off in the fermenter, and you'll get better utilization of your hops.

Another quick thought is it's just young - I've had IPA's "hold out" on me before and not give up the hop flavor for closer to 2 months.

Another thing I have noticed with extract brewing is dry hopping helps alot.

 

[Bobby_M]

It's been said and I'll say it again. Watch out for your hop utilization components. If the recipe assumes a partial boil to acheive bitterness/sweet balance, you need to do the partial boil to hit target IBU. If it assumes full boil, a partial boil will come out low IBU. The bottom line is, you'll get more IBU from a give hops the longer it is boiled (to a point) as well as the LOWER the gravity is.

To get more IBU:
1. Use hops with higher AA%
2. Use more hops
3. Full boil to create lower gravity for a given extract addition. -OR-
4. Late extract addition (boil hops in water, add extract 15min prior to flameout)

So, you can see why it's important to know what the recipe/direction author had in mind when doing the calculations for IBU. If it doesn't say how much water to boil, you're just guessing. That's where brewing software really comes in handy.

 

[david_42]

If this is in a keg, may I suggest some hop tea? Get an oz. of a high AA pellets (columbus would fit in well) and boil it in 1 quarts of water for 30 minutes. Since the gravity is 1.0 the AA will extract efficiently and you'll retain some of the flavor. Strain & add half of it into the keg and put the other half in the fridge. Taste it, give it a week & taste again. If it is still too sweet, add the rest of the tea.

 

[boldone]

Being that you mentioned it tasted good before you kegged it, how cold is your fridge? If your temp in the fridge is too cold you will lose a lot of the hop flavor leaving a sweeter (extract) flavor. I make sure that mine is around 50 degrees and it tastes much better. I did the Octane recipe and did not feel it fit an IPA. It was a tasty PA, but the hops were not pronounced (and I dry hopped with 1 oz EKG). Now 8 or 9 batches later I feel it was the temperature of my ale.

Don't give up, you will acheive great beer.

 

[Beer Snob]

That could be part of your problem. Use WLP001 California Ale Yeast next time and see if that helps. British and Irish ale yeasts tend to have lower attenuation rates, leaving you with residual sugar.

Also you might want to make a starter. There are those on both sides of the fence to whether or not you need one, but it certainly NEVER hurts. Since this could be an area that's hitting you, you want to be absolutly sure you have enough.

 

[cyberjoey80]

Wow...a lot of really good ideas. I think a full wort boil is a good idea but I will need to get a bigger pot. I am going to read more about hops and learn the formula to figure out IBU. I just figured if I read the reciepe I couldn't go wrong. It could be that the beer just is young. I will leave it in my fridge (at 48-50deg F) for a couple of weeks and see if it mellows out. Thanks again for all the great ideas. Hopefully other people will read this post cause there is a bunch of great ideas here. Brew on.

 

[Reckoning]

Just curious, but what was your final gravity? Also, how stable is your fermenting temperature?

 

[cyberjoey80]

My final gravity was around 1.022 and as far as temp stability goes..it was fairly stable but fluctuated between 65 and maybe 72-73. I have a frige now so I can be much more exacting in the future. I hate it when I mess things up. I try and be as careful as possible but without a spare frige, it is tough to keep ferementer at a steady temp, especially here in San Diego where the nights can be around 40-45 and the days 70-78. Mix that with an old house that can't retain heat in the winter and cool in the summer and it is doubly hard.

 

[dennc2]

the sg was 1.072 and the final was 1.022 , I think it needed to ferment a little longer
that FG looks a little bit high.

 

[Yooper]

A f.g. of 1.022 is terribly high- no wonder it tastes sweet. You kegged it, right? Otherwise, I'm thinking bottle bombs. Depending on the attenuation (I'm not doing the math!!!- I'm the math idiot), the beer is possibly/probably not done.

My recommendation: find a smaller beer you'd like to make. 1.074 is a big beer, and more likely to get a stuck fermentation. Make something in the 1.050 range, primary it with a large starter for a week. Then put it in secondary for 2 weeks. Then keg/tap it. I think you'll find out that you CAN make really good beer. Do NOT attempt a lager yet- a simple ale (IPA, Nut Brown Ale, American Pale Ale) would be great.

Temperature stability is more important than the actual temperature. Temperature fluctuations will wreck havoc with your yeast and fermentation. A closet, basement, etc, that maybe has less than ideal temperatures is better than temps that fluctuate.


Lorena

 

[the_bird]

the sg was 1.072 and the final was 1.022 , I think it needed to ferment a little longer
that FG looks a little bit high.

How did you aerate the beer? Big beers, especially, need lots of O2 for the yeast, or you risk stuck fermenations.

 

[cyberjoey80]

You guys are going to laugh at me for this one but I don't mind feeling stupid sometimes. I ordered an aeriation stone from Midwest. It was supposed to be here Dec x. (can't remember exact date). Anyway, I had all my beer supplies ready, including O2 tank but no stone. It got lost in the mail for over 3 weeks. After a week of waiting, I bought the only thing I could find with a reverse thread for an o2 tank. That was a dual hose for welding. It was meant to connect to mapp gas and o2 for a powerful flame. I just sanitized the whole handle, turned it on and threw it in the bottom of the fermenter (not hooked to mapp gas, just o2) They were some huuge bubbles. I finally got the stone and used it on my newest batch and realized how fine the bubbles are supposed to be. So I guess you can say that I infused it with o2, only not sure how effective it was.

 

[boldone]

Extract recipes are usual acurate with their estimated OG & FG. And dry yeast is usually fairly good at hitting it's apparent attenuation. I have brewed this kit before and the OG should not be higher than 1.068. I ran the recipe through TastyBrew's calculator and came up with this:

OG 1.066
FG 1.017
IBU 64
ABV 6.3 %
SRM 9


I have a feeling maybe your hydrometer readings were slightly off. Adjust the temp of your brew and you should see (taste) a big improvement.

 

[homebrewer_99]

...I'm not doing the math!!!- I'm the math idiot...

Some days I feel like a savant without the math skills...

 

[berudd]

I agree that 1.022 for a FG is high. I don't think I have done anything that was above the 1.013 range. A higher gravity means that you still have some unfermented sugar in there.

Here is what I would recommend. Step back and pretend you are doing it all for the first time. Go to Austin Homebrew and orde an extract kit for a style of beer you like but something fairly basic. I recommend the Warrior Pale Ale. Forget your present assumptions and concentrate on the kit instructions. Maybe have someone else following along with you to make sure you are not missinterpreting the instructions. I'd also so to bottle it instead of kegging it this time as well. Measure you OG and your FG and make sure they match what the kit says they should. If you are off on these, then you may have made a mistake somewhere.

I think you should try to keep the fermentation temps under 70. I have used the 1056 yeast with fermentation temps around 65 and it came out great. After bottleing, leave it alond in for a couple of weeks and then see what happens. The Warrior will have some floral aroma but it won't be sweet.

 

[cyberjoey80]

Yeah..it is possible that my hydrometer readings are off. I don't know why I have so much trouble reading this thing accurately. Chalk it up to a seasoned rookie. I think I am going to try and brew the same exact beer (even though it may be over my head a little) and use my fridge to keep everything on par with the receipe sheet and give it more time in secondary. Maybe about 3-4 weeks. I am not in a hurry so I have nothing to lose.

 

[Desert_Sky]

Carbonated with CO2 over 7 days.

7 days being forced carbed, isn't long enough to age your beer.

 

[cyberjoey80]

What kind of time frame are you recommending? Since I have pulled some out already, is it too late? This is my first keg batch. I am thinking to just leave psi around 10 for a few weeks more. Think that will work?

 

[BrettMan]

Wow - you guys know a lot about making some beer! I would have never guessed that the size of my boil would have any effect on how much I get outta my hops.... that's good to know.

I can only hope to be as brew-savvy one day!

 

[Yooper]

Wow - you guys know a lot about making some beer! I would have never guessed that the size of my boil would have any effect on how much I get outta my hops.... that's good to know.

I can only hope to be as brew-savvy one day!

I learn things on here every day! I didn't realize the size of the boil changed hops utilization a couple of months ago, either. My beers get better each time, from all the things I'm learning on here.

Lorena