Why a bucket? Can you ferment in a carboy?

[Hegh]

So I'm a little confused about headspace. You want to minimize it? But other posters were talking about the fermenter bowing off if it's too full... How much space do I need? Also is the constant motion of the sailboat more likely to cause problems in a bucket or in a BB??

So lets say I have a cooper's kit or any other standard 5 gal recipe. Can I do it in a 5 gal bucket/BB if so how much space do I leave/water do I use? Or do I have to have a larger vessel like a 6 gal to do a 5 gal batch?

How about doing 1/2 batches in a 3gal better bottle? Too much space? About right?

BrewOnBoard

Headspace is only an issue in primary, when a krausen will form and needs some extra space so it doesn't blow out your airlock.

The purpose of the secondary is to clear your brew, it's not really fermenting actively any more. There is no krausen. However, since secondaries are usually used for longer than primaries, you want to minimize the possibility of oxygenation coming from having too much air in the vessel (i.e. minimize headspace).

Honestly, headspace is unlikely to make any real difference because CO2 is heavier than oxygen, so very quickly a cushion of protective gas will settle over your beer and you won't need to worry about it.

As for carboys/BBs vs buckets, I chose to do my first brew in a 6g carboy because I couldn't stand the thought of not being able to see what was going on. I've got a really heavy-duty handle clamped on there, so carrying it isn't an issue. No problems cleaning it, either. Just fill it up with oxyclean solution and wait until there's no more gunk on the sides.

 

[McKBrew]

Headspace is not an issue with fermenting beer in the primary. It only has the potential to be an issue in the secondary. During fermentation, the CO2 protects the beer. A gallon of headspace would be the absolute minimum I'd personally go with. For five gallon batches 6-6.5 should be the minimum you consider.

 

[Pelikan]

Buckets aren't just for beginners!

+1 A lot of folks prefer buckets for the reasons previously mentioned. They're also safer than glass, and don't allow light to penetrate. If you let light into your brew, it will skunk. This is why carboys are wrapped in something or otherwise kept in the dark. This is also why Corona beer is bottled in clear bottles (because skunkiness is part of that [nasty] brew's flavor profile).

I use a 5 gallon glass for secondary duty, primarily because it leaves me with the least amount of head-space (head-space is bad at that stage of the game).

To dispel some of the myths: Plastic will not impart plasticy flavors. Buckets are made from the same stuff as milk jugs, orange juice containers, etc etc (food grade, in other words). If cleaned gently with oxyclean after every few brews, it will not absorb any of the aroma from previous batches. If you keep your primary time within the recommended 3-5 weeks, there is no danger at all of oxygen-related issues, nor of autolysis.

 

[Homercidal]

I like buckets because:

1. Cheap for starting out in.
2. Lightweight and has handle.
3. Easy to clean.
4. Drillable for adding spigot (makes transfers SO much easier).
5. Stackable
6. Can store stuff INSIDE when not in use.

Only thing I dont' care for about them is that you can't see through it to see what is going on.

Some people worry about scratching, but if you ONLY use a washrag for cleaning, then you should have no worries. With a carboy, you have to get in there with a brush, or resort to chemicals to get that baby clean, and it's a PITA compared to just popping the lid and wiping out with dish soap and rag (or whatever your favorite cleaner is).

 

[brewbies]

Anyone have experience using five-gallon water jugs for secondaries?

It seems like better bottles are basically the same thing with a logo slapped on it.

Is there any difference in plastic that I should be concerned about leeching?

My first batch is in my only glass carboy now, rather than buying another for the second batch I am brewing I figure this could serve as a cheap alternative.

 

[Grinder12000]

SO - it all comes down to Glass vs. Better Bottles vs. plastic buckets!! IT'S ON!!

All are good and all have positives and Negatives.

I prefer glass because it is so freaking easy to clean. No scrubbing, no wiping. Just swishing a few times. And it's darn pretty to look at when it is fermenting.

 

[goplayoutside]

+ 1 to everything homercidal said, I love my buckets. They make great beer, I don't use a secondary -- I let it get through the active ferment and down to fg, maybe a few days more, at the temp of my choosing for the yeast, and then move the bucket into the basement and let it clear for two or three weeks. Then I prime and bottle. I know some people say you shouldn't leave beer in a bucket more than two weeks because oxygen gets through, or you shouldn't leave beer on a primary yeast cake for more than two weeks because of autolysis, but I find that the beer is good -- as good as a lot of craft brews and fresher.

I actually used to use carboys but have moved a few times (cross-country in a mid-size sedan) and my carboys have failed to make the trip (they are happily bubbling away in my friends' basements) -- I switched to buckets because I can keep two and one fits inside the other and most of my other brewing stuff fits in there-- this I can move with. I also love how easy to clean they are and you can't beat the handle. Maybe if I ever live someplace for a while and want to lager I'll consider carboys or better bottles.

 

[Grinder12000]

Except when gravity shatters them.

If your bucket gets scratched, you are doing it wrong

Well LOL - if you are handling a glass carboy with wet hands I believe you are doing THAT wrong!

this I can move with. I also love how easy to clean they are and you can't beat the handle.

My carboys all have handles.

It all comes down to personal choice. I have to think weight is the biggest reason people use buckets - personally I do not trust plastic - I would scratch them the first time I used one. Yea - that means I was doing it wrong but that should not be a factor. I like to take "wrong" out of the equation because I WILL do it wrong.

Glass is not THAT heavy or slippery and I can't scratch it with my incompetence.

OK - those are my "boredom at work" thoughts!

 

[DeathBrewer]

Actually, real men have conicals.

srsly

 

[Tenchiro]

srsly

Whatever helps you guys sleep at night.

 

[BrewOnBoard]

Anyone have experience using five-gallon water jugs for secondaries?

It seems like better bottles are basically the same thing with a logo slapped on it.

Is there any difference in plastic that I should be concerned about leeching?

My first batch is in my only glass carboy now, rather than buying another for the second batch I am brewing I figure this could serve as a cheap alternative.

I've been wondering that too. Of course BBs have the option to have a spigot installed, which looks useful.

So I'm starting to get the picture. Headspace is necessary for krausen space and to keep blow-off from happening in the primary but not scary because CO2 forms the O2 barrier. I might want to go for as little headspace as I can get away with as the co2 barrier won't be as effective as the boat sloshes around. So I guess if I use a 5gal kit I'll need either 2x3gal BBs or a 6 gal bucket.....

BrewOnBoard

 

[Jaha35]

I use both for primaries, but usually prefer buckets...they have handles, which make them easy to carry, and pouring from the brew kettle into the bucket makes for easy aeration. Carboys are nice to watch fermentation ripping along, but that gets old after a while.

Jaha35, you'll be better off with a 5-gal carboy or better bottle for your secondary, as you want to minimize headspace. Don't use a bucket for that.

Thanks for the clarity on the secondary. I talked to the guy at the Brew Store and he told me as a primary that a bucket is much easier than a 6 gal BB because of cleaning factors. I now have a 6 gal glass carboy and a bucket both for primaries. Based on the discussions and since I am new I am going to go without a secondary and see if I like my results. Then I'll move to a secondary if I see fit. I'll just go 5 gal BB for that to avoid the weight of glass.

Oh btw. For my 6 gal carboy I initially concocted a rope basket for it for transport but then found a very large canvas bag in the closet. It's kind of like a beach bag for towels, etc.. My carboy fits perfectly in it with some extra space and because canvas is so strong it is perfect for transporting my heavy wort around without issue. Also it saves me a step as it completely covers the carboy keeping light out. For those scared of glass I would recommend finding a bag like that to make your life easier. It also can serve other purposes besides brewing.

 

[BrewOnBoard]

It also can serve other purposes besides brewing.

I don't understand at all. What other purpose is there?

I think I'm hooked on brewing again....:rockin:

BrewOnBoard

 

[Jaha35]

I've been wondering that too. Of course BBs have the option to have a spigot installed, which looks useful.

So I'm starting to get the picture. Headspace is necessary for krausen space and to keep blow-off from happening in the primary but not scary because CO2 forms the O2 barrier. I might want to go for as little headspace as I can get away with as the co2 barrier won't be as effective as the boat sloshes around. So I guess if I use a 5gal kit I'll need either 2x3gal BBs or a 6 gal bucket.....

BrewOnBoard

The only thing you may have to worry about with a regular water jug vs a BB is what type of plastic they use and how it reacts. This may not be an issue but I would check it. Look for the logo on the base of the jug and see what its toxicity rate is.

BB's seem to make a big deal about the type of plastic they are constructed out of and how it does not react with Wort or let air in etc. Regular water jugs may not be of that quality however they are used for storing drinking water so I would imagine the plastic has to be food grade.

The biggest fear I would have is if you are pouring hot wort into it for cooling. Heating some plastics can have bad effects/results in any cooking application. If you cool externally it probably isn't a problem.

Perhaps the best test is to simply brew a batch and taste the results. If it sucks then go to a BB. I would love to know the results because I could just grab a 5 gal for a secondary and save myself 25-30 bucks.

EDIT*

There is a thread about water bottles in the FAQ section but here is some clarifying info.

To be certain that you are choosing a bottle that does not leach, check the recycling symbol on your bottle. If it is a #2 HDPE (high density polyethylene), or a #4 LDPE (low density polyethylene), or a #5 PP (polypropylene), your bottle is fine. The type of plastic bottle in which water is usually sold is usually a #1, and is only recommended for one time use. Do not refill it. Better to use a reusable water bottle, and fill it with your own filtered water from home and keep these single-use bottles out of the landfill.

Unfortunately, those fabulous colourful hard plastic lexan bottles made with polycarbonate plastics and identified by the #7 recycling symbol, may leach BPA. Bisphenol A is a xenoestrogen, a known endocrine disruptor, meaning it disturbs the hormonal messaging in our bodies. Synthetic xenoestrogens are linked to breast cancer and uterine cancer in women, decreased testosterone levels in men, and are particularly devastating to babies and young children. BPA has even been linked to insulin resistance and Type 2 Diabetes. For more of the science on the effects of BPA on our endocrine system etc. see these studies: Environmental Health Perspectives Journal. Nalgene, the company that manufactures the lexan water bottles also makes #2 HDPE bottles in the same sizes and shapes, so we have a viable alternative.

Unfortunately, most plastic baby bottles and drinking cups are made with plastics containing Bisphenol A. In 2006 Europe banned all products made for children under age 3 containing BPA, and as of Dec. 2006 the city of San Franscisco followed suit. In March 2007 a billion-dollar class action suit was commenced against Gerber, Playtex, Evenflo, Avent, and Dr. Brown's in Los Angeles superior court for harm done to babies caused by drinking out of baby bottles and sippy cups containing BPA. So, to be certain that your baby is not exposed, use glass bottles.

 

[Jaha35]

I don't understand at all. What other purpose is there?

I think I'm hooked on brewing again....:rockin:

BrewOnBoard

Well I get ya but it can be used as a beach bag, book bag, extra clothing bag for traveling, scarring the cat. You know, the usual...

 

[Pelikan]

I know some people say you shouldn't leave beer in a bucket more than two weeks because oxygen gets through, or you shouldn't leave beer on a primary yeast cake for more than two weeks because of autolysis, but I find that the beer is good -- as good as a lot of craft brews and fresher.

Most of the senior folks around here actually recommend 3-5 weeks in the bucket, on the cake. In my personal experience, I saw a notable improvement between week 2 and week 3, when I was doing a little tasting experiment (re: length in primary and impact on taste). It was almost as if, in the matter of a few days, the taste went from jumbled to refined.

Now, I try to keep all my brews in the bucket, on the cake, for at least 3 weeks. After 3 weeks you start to run into the law of diminishing returns, so I primary for 3, and secondary for 1-2, so I can have as many brews in the pipeline as possible.

 

[TysonWD]

Here's a question about cleaning buckets then. I've read that using a washrag to clean your ale pail could possibly scratch it. How do you veteran bucket cleaners accomplish bucket cleaning without scratching it?


Thanks

Tyson

1.5 weeks until his first bottling!

 

[McKBrew]

A standar dish rag is not going to scratch a bucket. The best all around brewery cleaner is oxyclean. Soaking a bucket or carboy full of water and oxy will 99.2823% remove everything without scrubbing.

Here's a question about cleaning buckets then. I've read that using a washrag to clean your ale pail could possibly scratch it. How do you veteran bucket cleaners accomplish bucket cleaning without scratching it?


Thanks

Tyson

1.5 weeks until his first bottling!

 

[Pelikan]

Here's a question about cleaning buckets then. I've read that using a washrag to clean your ale pail could possibly scratch it. How do you veteran bucket cleaners accomplish bucket cleaning without scratching it?


Thanks

Tyson

1.5 weeks until his first bottling!

Paper Towels + Clear Water + Elbow Grease = Clean Bucket. I would not use a washrag under any circumstances, for several reasons: 1 - They normally have organic tid-bits trapped in them, even after being washed. Organic tid-bits = the death knell for your brew. 2 - Inorganic tid-bits (or particularly tough organic tid-bits) can and will get caught in your wash cloth, and this is what will scratch your bucket. Whether either of these things will ruin a batch for you is up to the Fates, but why take the chance?

If you really want the thing spotless, add enough oxyclean for a 5 gallon dilution, then fill to five gallons. Let it sit for a while, go through the motions with the paper towels, and that's it. The hardest thing to get off is the krausen ring, and even that isn't so bad -- provided you don't let it sit out and dry. Clean immediately after emptying for best/easiest results.

Of course, you'll need to clean/sanitize it with Star San before brewing with it again, regardless of what you use to clean it.

 

[Jaha35]

Can you use C-Brite with buckets for a soak? Also couldn't you just microwave or soak your rags as well to kill bacteria? How about a regular soft sponge?

 

[Tenchiro]

I just rinse mine out when still damp and use a soft brush on any gunk, then sanitize when I use them again.

 

[Pelikan]

Can you use C-Brite with buckets for a soak? Also couldn't you just microwave or soak your rags as well to kill bacteria? How about a regular soft sponge?

Bacteria are resilient, and none of this will protect you against granular solids trapped in the matrix, which will most surely scratch your bucket. Again, this won't guarantee failure, but it will raise the odds against you. Why take the chance? Paper towels are dirt cheap...

C-Brite is both a cleaner and a sanitizing agent (it's basically crystallized bleach). As far as a soak, it probably won't do much for you -- it's meant primarily to sanitize. Just soak with hot water if you don't want to get the Oxyclean.

 

[Jaha35]

Bacteria are resilient, and none of this will protect you against granular solids trapped in the matrix, which will most surely scratch your bucket. Again, this won't guarantee failure, but it will raise the odds against you. Why take the chance? Paper towels are dirt cheap...

C-Brite is both a cleaner and a sanitizing agent (it's basically crystallized bleach). As far as a soak, it probably won't do much for you -- it's meant primarily to sanitize. Just soak with hot water if you don't want to get the Oxyclean.

Just curious because I have a 5 pound tub of Oxy I rarely use but also 1 lb of C-brite. Naturally I forgot about the Oxy when I bought a lot of my cleansing supplies. I am hearing some conflict with C-Brite that it's Sanitizing properties are not that great.

I also have Barkeeper's Friend to wash out my kettle. Can this also be used in a bucket? It claims to be safe on surfaces you don't want to scratch.

 

[Pelikan]

I am hearing some conflict with C-Brite that it's Sanitizing properties are not that great.

C-Brite gets some bad press in these parts because it has "cleaner" written on the front, as opposed to "sanitizer." The only reason for this is that the manufacturer of C-Brite did not want to go through the trouble and expense of having themselves approved by the FDA as a "sanitizer," when the market for C-Brite (ie: pre-packaged kits) is already locked in for them.

C-Brite, once reconstituted, is chlorine bleach. It's one of the best universal sanitizers out there. Just be careful not to get it on your cloths, or in your eyes. Also, one needs to rinse the crap out of the bucket once finished, or the beer will have eau de Clorox goin on.

For these reasons, many people prefer the no-rinse Star San as a sanitizer (myself included). But this doesn't mean C-Brite lacks sanitizing gusto, it's just somewhat more tedious to use.

EDIT: Big NO on the Barkeeper's Friend. It won't scratch glass or porcelain, but you can bet it will eat away at a plastic bucket like it wasn't there. The Oxyclean you have is el perfecto for this task. And too, I've cleaned dirty buckets with nothing but warm water and a paper towel...again, it's not hard, and takes about 2 minutes. You don't need to go mad cleaning them...indeed, it's best if you go gentle on them. The dark flecks of krausen, etc, is what you need to take care of when cleaning so it doesn't dry and stick on there. Just make sure you do a good job of sanitizing on brew day, and you have no worries.

 

[DeathBrewer]

Whatever helps you guys sleep at night.

i slept real good last night, after my beer fermented in the 50s for 3 days and has reached final gravity, so i knocked off all the trub & yeast and pulled a sample with nothing but a spray bottle and a few containers.

i didn't have to clean any carboys and no matter what, i won't have to carry any when i use this vessel

so

 

[goplayoutside]

Apparently my "this I can move with" comment earlier was taken out of context. I mean that since I can put one bucket inside the other, and fit a bunch of other stuff in there, I save a lot of space when I pack up my car and move, which happens often. With carboys I would need space for two carboys and then all the other stuff... like 3 times as much space.

I do like the handles on buckets but never had a problem just picking my carboys up (when I still had them) and putting them where I wanted them. Never sprung for the handles although they look nice.

It's of course completely true that carboys and buckets both work and that it's a personal choice, but given the fact that I notice no degradation of the beer quality from using buckets, and they have a number of undisputed convenience advantages (some will say these are unimportant but they sure make life easier), and are cheaper, I say the ball is in the carboy's court to explain why I should spend extra money for it... maybe for lagering but otherwise in my situation, the carboy comes up short. Although I do miss being able to see the ferment

Oh and I clean my buckets with a soft sponge and dish soap, then rinse them, and then sanitize before using.

 

[bull8042]

Actually, real men have conicals.

OUCH! I think my winkie just shrunk an inch.... A couple more and Yooper and I will have more in common than just brewing beer!

 

[hungrymonkey]

what buckets are you guys using that are cheaper than carboys?

The 8 gallon one at my Lhbs is $25.

Are you all using food grade buckets with an O ring on the lid? or something made and produced for homebrewers?

 

[schneemann]

what buckets are you guys using that are cheaper than carboys?

Pretty much any plastic fermentation bucket is gonna be cheaper than a glass carboy these days...

 

[scinerd3000]

Pretty much any plastic fermentation bucket is gonna be cheaper than a glass carboy these days...

and they dont break. Its nice not to have to worry. Or look into better bottles