Who leaves the lid loose on the fermenter

[wailingguitar]

...I think the kind of brewer you are has a lot to do with which book you read first. I read Papazian and was told repeatedly to relax....So that's the attitude I took from day 1, and you know it hasn't proven me wrong yet...nor has it a lot of brewers.

Agreed... People knock C.P.'s book as being too simplistic, but some damn good brewers learned from it. I have never been in a commercial brewery that didn't have it in their library.

I learned a lot from his RDWHAHB attitude, and have seen it in practice in some very well known breweries. In fact, IME, those are the places making the best beer...

 

[Reno_eNVy]

That's only true if both the lid and the the rim of the bucket were perfectly flat. If you've brewed more than once, or if you've flexed your lid to fit it into another bucket to sanitize it, then they almost certainly aren't.

If you've done what is in the bolded statement, you might as well throw away that bucket. I'm sure that lid put a nice, big, microbe-sheltering scratch in there.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

I've complained about that for years as well. He seemed to focus on all the "worst case scenarios," and freaked out an entire generation of brewers- He went I think into too much detail about all the boogeymen, HSA, Autolysis, yadda yadda yadda, without actually getting into how rare it really is. And folks just tended to glom onto the fear.

And every day we have to pick up the pieces hundreds of times a day of freaked out new brewers. Or the "vs" people who can't get their head around the idea that there are multiple ways of doing things that one thing, be it, plastic or glass, batch or fly sparging, or anything else that can be asked as a -vs-, is no better or worse than another thing, it's just a different and equally valid way of doing things...just like this, folks bristle at the idea that folks may not snap the lid down, or use plexiglass or tinfoil, or whatever.

It's funny, you have Papazian in the 60's and 70's with the very hippie, rdwhahb ethic, just lay back, let the process happen and everything will be fine. Then you have the next generation, Generation Palmer, that totally focuses on and worries about the negative, and seems to delve into absolutes.

And I think the kind of brewer you are has a lot to do with which book you read first. I read Papazian and was told repeatedly to relax....So that's the attitude I took from day 1, and you know it hasn't proven me wrong yet...nor has it a lot of brewers.

Amen, brother! I read C. Pap first and I'm generally quite relaxed about brewing. I engage in normal, sane sanitation practices and am only really adminant about treating my equipment well so it lasts a long long time.

 

[dmcoates]

I use a pillow case to cover my fermentor when i am doing wine. It lets O2 in and keeps stuff from getting in. Works great and i have never had any issues. I go to an airlock around 1.20 SG or so, when fermentation slows.

 

[Revvy]

Amen, brother! I read C. Pap first and I'm generally quite relaxed about brewing. I engage in normal, sane sanitation practices and am only really adminant about treating my equipment well so it lasts a long long time.

I started thsi thread in jest 3 years ago, but I think it bares zombifying...

Which Brewer are you?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

When the air inside the fermenter cools it will condense, creating lower pressure and causing air from the outside to be pulled in. I'm not sure what you don't get about that. . .

Fixed and Yes.

But the CO2 is and will always be (so long as their is no signifigant disturbance to airflow within the vessel) heavier than the air that is drawn in and thus will remain stratified as an effective blanket against Oxidative gases.

And, unless you are dropping it into a cryo tank the cooling will take place so gradually (if not restricted by a vacuum creating seal) that it would not "suck" anything in but rather simply displace the volume. since there would be no air current to carry any pathogens into the buckety they would simply drop beyond the open edge.

In fact, if there were any realistic issue as you are suggesting then an airlock would be no safer a solution as pathogens would be just aseasily drawn into the airlock and potentially sucked into the vessle in the same manner. Unless, of course, the airlock were filled with a sanitizing solution.

 

[MisterOJ]

It's funny, you have Papazian in the 60's and 70's with the very hippie, rdwhahb ethic, just lay back, let the process happen and everything will be fine. Then you have the next generation, Generation Palmer, that totally focuses on and worries about the negative, and seems to delve into absolutes.

And I think the kind of brewer you are has a lot to do with which book you read first. I read Papazian and was told repeatedly to relax....So that's the attitude I took from day 1, and you know it hasn't proven me wrong yet...nor has it a lot of brewers.

I've pretty much read all of Palmer's book I am going to now. I skipped a lot of the stuff about all-grain, but I may go back when (if) I decide to move up to doing that.

I'm interested in reading other brewing books though. Would Papazian be a good place to go next, or would I be better off picking up something like Brewing Classic Styles or Designing Great Beers?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I've pretty much read all of Palmer's book I am going to now. I skipped a lot of the stuff about all-grain, but I may go back when (if) I decide to move up to doing that.

I'm interested in reading other brewing books though. Would Papazian be a good place to go next, or would I be better off picking up something like Brewing Classic Styles or Designing Great Beers?

DGB, while dated, is a great book with none stigmatism inferred in the context.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

I started thsi thread in jest 3 years ago, but I think it bares zombifying...

Which Brewer are you?

Done

 

[helibrewer]

I have routinely used Saran wrap spread over the surface of my red wines when I need a few days between fermentation and pressing. I generally lay down a layer of CO2 and put a loose lid on it.

I CO2 purge/top all of my carboys and buckets (wine and beer). It's very cheap insurance against oxidation. I fill until a lighter flame extinguishes at the lip of the vessel then SLIDE the lid/airlock on, this minimizes the disturbance of the blanket.

Oxidation is insidious in white wine making and I have just adopted most of those practices into beer making as well.

 

[eastoak]

anybody curious about how easy it is for wild yeast/bacteria to actually get into a fermentor should fill a gallon/bucket jug with fresh wort and see what happens and how long it takes. it's what i did, been 3 days and nothing visible so far.

 

[Mookie]

Wow, this thing has gotten a lot more response than I expected. My reason for posting the question was not really out of concern of infection, but more out of curiosity as to whether it was common practice, and it seems like it is relatively common.

Many years ago, in the Navy, I was trained as a Nuclear Power Plant Operator (2 years of schools) and operated plants for 4 years before getting out with a 6 years of experience. I am very familiar with gas laws, atomic masses of elements and molecules and fluid dynamics in general. I agree that there should be little or no fear of contamination if I do proper sanitation.

What I am always intrigued by is the idea that some people fear what a little air might do to their beer in the first couple of hours before fermentation gets rolling and co2 starts to be given off. When the beer is transfered to the fermenter, the idea is to introduce as much air as possible which most people do by holding the transfer hose high and letting the sweet juice get max air contact and splash into the fermenter. Next they shake the heck out of the fermenter to get more air contact Then they think they have to seal it tight to not let any air in? Sounds nutty to me, but who am I to question......I have a limited education.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but people really need to think about whether or not their ideas make sense.

Thanks all,

Mookie

 

[BradleyBrew]

"Sorry for the sarcasm, but people really need to think about whether or not their ideas make sense."

Easy... about 90% of these threads would NOT exist if people thought things through! I have been guilty as well lol

 

[Mookie]

Roger That!! I am guilty as well when asking questions, usually to make sure I am not missing something.

My sarcasm is more directed at responders making statements that are off base. If I don't know something for a fact, I will not say anything at all or qualify it as being only my opinion. But I do have to admit....it is fun to read through these things when people disagree or somebody with the right answer comes along and blows the wrong answers out of the water....or wort as the case may be.

Now I am going to consume some homebrew, the one thing funner than reading about it.

 

[squirrelly]

I agree fully with the oxygenating practice. It's like sanitizing all of your equipment and boiling your wort for an hour then dumping cold tap water into your fermenter to top it off.

Both of these practices seem nuts to me, which is why I've always refused to do either. Under the advice of a few BJCP judges, I've always used sterile O2 to oxygenate and have always done full wort boils.

By sticking with these practices I know I can make the same beer taste identical to the last each time I brew it, and give it a professional brew pub taste. This way I know if I don't at least place well in a competition it's not because of my mechanics or brewing process, but rather the judges thought my recipe was not within style guidelines which is much easier to deal with than sanitation issues.

 

[Ozzfest05]

I just want to chime in , my fermenter is 11.5 gallon food grade bucket. It's very flexible plastic and looks like a large garbage can and the lid does not snap on at all, it's not meant to.

The loose fit lid is definitely enough , some people are so paranoid about things and over think.

In this fermenter I have brewed about 55 gallons in 5-6 gallon batches some I ferment for 3 weeks primary and some 1 week. I haven't noticed any difference between leaving it in primary for longer vs secondary.

When I'm lazy the beer sits in that primary,
No air is getting in there and no particles can get in there the lid prevents such a thing. The blanket of co2 protects your beer pretty much. So I have tried and tested proof in my mind that it works great with nothing to worry about , they sell these fermenters at all homebrew stores here.

If it didn't work I wouldn't use it.

 

[squirrelly]

I know the container you are talking about, though my shop does not sell them as fermenters, but rather long term bulk grain storage containers. I have 3 in my my brewery full of 100 lbs of American 2 row, British 2 row, and German Pilsner malt.

 

[howabouttheiris]

"nasties" are not ninja acrobats

Maybe not, but your dog, cat, kids, .... are.

For the sake of $1.00, put an airlock on.

 

[Batinse]

I have had basically the same experience as Ozzfest. I use a roughly 43L food-grade plastic bucket with a loose-fitting lid. I've left beers in it for up to three weeks before racking to a carboy with an airlock and I've never had an infection or contamination problem.

That said, I use it because it's the biggest fermentor I have and it's easier to get the beer in it from the kettle. I don't do it because I'm worried about blow-off, although I usually put my most vigorous fermentors in it. It doesn't have an air lock. I'd probably use one if it did. But it's not strictly necessary. The CO2 will protect it from baddies and the lid will protect it from airborne particles (cat hair, etc.)

In conclusion: RDWAHAHB

 

[Ozzfest05]

Maybe not, but your dog, cat, kids, .... are.

For the sake of $1.00, put an airlock on.

Your missing it. It's not about money.
Some fermenters are designed with a loose fit lid, meaning the lid itself is not meant to clip on but just cover.

My fermenter is in a freezer with temp controller so kids or pets don't touch , you could get scientist to research it if you wanted to the answer remains the same.

Loose fit lid design works the same as an air tight design with air lock so long as your practices are correct. if your aging it longer than fermentation times or dry hop / spice then you secondary.