Whirlpooling has NEVER created a Trub Cone

[Flomaster]

Cape, I have my BK setup similar to your only difference I have a CFC, but my output temps are spot on with the water input temp. how long would you have you have to "chill" with that method?

-=Jason=-

 

[Randar]

Ed, I hear ya, but I could just pump from the BK > CFC > WP Keggle. once done pump into carboy

I use a more powerful pump than the 809 so I still get sufficient flow through the CFC and back into the BK... but I know a lot of breweries have dedicated whirlpool vessels, so YMMV and I definitely could see how an 809 wouldn't have enough juice to spin up a larger volume batch sufficiently.

 

[zgardener]

Thanks Cape Brewing, sounds exactly the kind of system I want to set up, maybe I'll add a hop-back in the line as well

 

[Cape Brewing]

how long would you have you have to "chill" with that method?

depends on volume... I can drop 15 gallons from a boil to about 75 degrees in about 10-12 minutes. Then it'll take another 10 minutes or so to drop that last 5-10 degrees to pitch temp. The tap water running through the plate chiller just isn't that cold and I've never bothered trying to make it faster. It ain't broke so I ain't fixin' it.

Once chilled, I flip a switch and shut down the circuit to the chill plate and it whirlpools at a pretty decent clip.

 

[zgardener]

depends on volume... I can drop 15 gallons from a boil to about 75 degrees in about 10-12 minutes. Then it'll take another 10 minutes or so to drop that last 5-10 degrees to pitch temp. The tap water running through the plate chiller just isn't that cold and I've never bothered trying to make it faster. It ain't broke so I ain't fixin' it.

Once chilled, I flip a switch and shut down the circuit to the chill plate and it whirlpools at a pretty decent clip.

So you recirculate chilled wort and THEN whirlpool?

 

[Cape Brewing]

Yes... The BK "whirlpools" as it is chilling simply from the way the wort is returned to the BK. Once chilled, I shut off the circuit to the chill plate and the flow rate picks up significantly and it whirlpools much stronger.

 

[ClaudiusB]

I've been brewing about a year and a half, and I have never had a whirlpool give me a nice compacted cone of trub/hop matter as I have seen in so many photos. I am using a 9 gallon ceramic coated lobster pot, I have tried whirlpooling with a brew spoon and with a wine de-gasser attached to a drill, neither has given me the results that I want, and I usually end up taking a good amount of trub into my fermenter.
Suggestions?

After the boil is finished I wait ≈10 minutes for some of the trub to settle out, then I pump the hot wort into a whirlpool tank.

I don't know if you consider this a nice compact cone.
After 10 minutes of waiting, all pellet hops.
Similar amount stays behind in the brew kettle.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB

 

[bigbeergeek]

It's nice to vent about this illusive trub/hop cone that none of us stirrers are attaining. Feels good to finally open up about it...

 

[corncob]

I don't get the kind of trub cone ClaudiusB does, but I just stir the kettle with a spoon for a minute and wait 10-15 minutes. I end up with the vast majority of pellet hop and hot break material in a really nice cone in the middle. For a six gallon batch, the first four or four-and-a-half gallons siphoned out of the BK are crystal clear, then I get a gallon-or-so full of fluffy, Whirlfloc cold break, then I quit. I always measure the volume of what's left in the kettle to make sure all my math has worked out right. I have sifted through this stuff with curious hands looking for hop bits,etc. and found very little, BTW. Works for me.

BY THE WAY, some HBT member recently posted about straining and freezing the leftovers for use in starters later. If I ever meet him (or her) I will kiss him (her) right smack on the mouth. That little gem of a tip, which requires no extra risk of infection, dish washing, sanitatization, number-crunching, driving, bribery, or human sacrifice, makes a significant dent in my per-batch cost. Good times!!

 

[cwi]

The shape, or proportions I should say, are supposed to greatly influence the effectiveness of the whirlpool. Going from memory from 20 years ago on the zymurgy BBS, there were discussions on the physics of the whirlpool. A more oblate (squat- short and wide) vessel will give better cones. Friction from contact with the bottom of the kettle contributed to an upwelling in the center of the vessel. I can't remember all of the details, and it isn't immediately intuitive. Many large brewery WPs use current deflectors in the bottom-center to help slow the flow in the center and enhance the flow up the center of the vessel. Some guys report the curved bottom of keggles enhances the cone effect, but I don't know if any large breweries use curved bottom WPs. From what I remember, a curved bottom didn't help the physics, so I am a bit skeptical. Edit: some breweries use a slightly sloped (1-2 deg), but I think that may be partly to help retain the cone vs. forming it. Maybe also for cleaning purposes.

 

[ChuckO]

At the moment, I think I'm giving up on the whirlpool too until I get a new kettle and pump and install a whirlpool/recirc tube. Has anyone ever run hot wort thru a counterflow or plate chiller, then run it back into the kettle for whirlpool? would that work?

Yes, that's how I do it and I get a well defined mound of trub in the center of the boil kettle. I pump the wort through the counterflow chiller and back into the boil kettle for about 15 minutes. By that time it has cooled almost to pitching temperature.

Two things to think about though:
1) Looking down on the boil kettle, the flow should be clockwise if north of the equator. This makes for an easier whirlpool.
2) In a whirlpool the lightest material moves to the center, heavier material is not quite in the center. It takes time in the whirlpool for the material to move, it doesn't happen right away. It then takes time with no motion for it to settle.

 

[cwi]

You can spin the wort using whatever method you like. So long as it spins fast enough so that once you stop inducing the spin, the wort has enough angular velocity to allow the cone to form. The angular velocity required is highly dependent on the vessel size/shape.

Clockwise/counter-clockwise doesn't matter, as the coriolis effect is miniscule (edit: at kettle scale). You might as well factor in which way the butterfly in Ohio was facing when he flapped his wings, if the coriolis effect matters to you that is. Besides, the coriolis effect in the Northern Hemisphere makes things spin counter-clockwise. The forces creating the cone are pressure differentials cause by speed differences due to friction (tea leaf paradox). The coriolis effect is cancelled out almost completely (and it started out insignificant), because no matter which direction the wort is spinning, the coriolis effect helps and hurts almost equally.

For home brewing, the important part is the wort spin down. You have to give it time without any disturbances. A smooth vessel will work best, especially at the outer edges. The upwelling that causes cone formation can be enhanced by adding diverters, as I mentioned in my previous post, but it would take some trial and error to figure out what works best.

 

[ChuckO]

Just tried a physics experiment. Filled my sink with water and removed the stopper. When I put a drop of food coloring in the water. Flow goes clockwise here in West Virginia.

Whirlpool in my boil kettle shows flow for about 2 minutes longer when I go clockwise instead of counter-clockwise. I think that this is significant.

I agree that the spin down time and settling time is very important.

 

[Randar]

ChuckO, the Coriolis Effect results in counter-clockwise rotation of draining liquids through a central drain North or the equator. I know West Virginny is backwards, but even so it does not defy the laws of physics.

Note, however, that many other factors could contribute to observing clockwise rotation North of the equator as the Coriolis Effect has nowhere near the influence as popular perception would have you believe.

 

[DeafSmith]

I agree with cwi that the Coriolis effect is totally insignificant on the scale that we're talking about - now if you're talking about the scale of a hurricane, that's a different matter.
My recollection of the BYO article is that friction with the bottom slows the rotational velocity of the bottom part of the liquid, so the top part spins faster. Because the "centrifugal force" (centripetal acceleration) is greater at the top due to the greater rotational speed, a flow is generated outward from the top, down along the sides of the vessel, then radially in toward the center along the bottom, and upward in the center, and around and around. This flow is super imposed on the rotation, but it is this that moves the heavier trub particles to the center, contrary to what you might expect.

 

[cwi]

I agree with cwi that the Coriolis effect is totally insignificant on the scale that we're talking about - now if you're talking about the scale of a hurricane, that's a different matter.

DeafSmith, I find it difficult to believe you agree with me in the face of incontrovertible physical evidence as presented by Chucko. Even though, as Randar has pointed out, Chucko does live in WV, where laws of nature are frequently violated.