Whirlpool hop utilization and IBU calculations for NEIPA

[shanecb]

I'm putting together a NEIPA recipe, and at the moment only have it written with whirlpool hop additions and ample dry hopping (subject to change). I have some questions and consideration regarding potential IBUs from the whirlpool addition, that I'd appreciate some input on! This is specifically for my NEIPA recipe but would apply to any whirlpool hops in any style, really. I'm using Tinseth and Beersmith for my calculations. This is for a 2.5 gallon batch with 3 ounces of ~12 AA% hops for the whirlpool addition. I know the hop calculations in any case are highly variable, but for the purpose of discussion I'm going to assume general accuracy.

I've been doing a lot of research on hop utilization for whirlpool additions at differing temperatures. The default in Beersmith is set to 50%, assuming the whirlpool is done at (I think it was) 194F. I had been planning to do my whirlpool rest for 15-20min at 170F. The hop utilization in Beersmith, by all accounts I've found, should be set to 13-15% if it's going to be done at 170F. The difference in calculated IBUs is pretty significant between the two... if left at default 50% utilization the IBUs are about 60, and if set to 13-15% it drops down to about 18 IBUs. Makes sense.

Now, for a lot of NEIPA recipes I've seen with whirlpool additions as bittering, the calculated IBUs are generally up in that 45-60 range or so when the amount of hops is around what I'm planning to use. Which brings me to my first question. Is this because most people are actually doing whirlpool additions at 194F-ish, or are most people using the lower temperatures and just don't know to change the hop utilization percentage in their calculations? If it's the latter, then the IBU calculations for these recipes would be quite a bit higher than the IBUs in the final product.

Secondly, if I do decide to go with the 170F whirlpool temperature with the lower hop utilization, and I want to bump up the bitterness, would most people just add more whirlpool hops, or use a small bittering addition during the boil? Or, I could just increase the temperature of the whirlpool addition to really bump up the IBUs.

If anybody is interested, I've been taking into account this experiment as one source regarding perception and IBUs from whirlpool additions of various temperature and times. It's a cool read!

Thanks for any input anyone has!

 

[couchsending]

Thanks for the link, ‘twas a good read.

The part I found interesting was it seems like the short WP time had the best aroma/flavor/etc. which is pretty much opposite of the other whirlpool study people quote done by... spacing it at the moment.. some chain of Brewpubs around the US.

Yet I’ve heard both Kimmich and Matt Brynildson talk about cooling the wort as fast as possible after the hops are added in WP to retain as many oils as possible. Brynildson specifically mentions adding them at the very end of the whirlpool but who knows how long they stay at high temps on a 120bbl batch?

Then there’s the study that talks about large DH additions actually decreasing measured IBUs..

Then there’s wort PH to think of...

At this point I’m pretty much convinced IBUs are pretty much irrelevant... Julius is supposedly a 75-80 theoretical IBU beer, yet no one who drinks it would ever say that.

 

[day_trippr]

What I take from the article is science lags the brewmaster's skills.
Like so many art forms there are techniques that defy algorithms...

Cheers!

 

[divrack]

There are also studies that show large dh shooting can significantly increase in just to muddy the neipa water further. Scott jansh has a good write up of this, suggesting humulones of oxidised beta acids are responsible, but how that interests with alpha is uncertain.
Oh wait I haven't helped at all, that's just made it all more confusing...

I don't really put much stock in ibu calculations for this style either tbh. I figure just keep it as low as possible while still loading up hops by the bucket. I dose at flame out then wait then chill with a bigger dose then dry hop at days 3 and 5 chill keg drink, but I'm sure there are many ways to go.
I just don't like keg hops flavour personally

 

[shanecb]

Good points from all! Perhaps I'm overthinking it a bit, and the best approach is really to just give it a try, see how I like it, and adjust with subsequent batches.

 

[FruityHops]

In the Beersmith podcast he's mentioned that he's updating whirlpool utilization calculations in the new version. I don't know if that has been released yet.

I was under the impression there is no utilization once you get below 180F or so. To try and keep things consistent no matter which system I brew on I like to get my bittering during boil and then I do my whirlpool additions at 160F. This way I put 0% utilization in my software and think I have a pretty good idea of what the IBUs actually are.

If you're doing a whirlpool at 170F I would still assume basically 0% utilization and use boiling to get bitterness. Adding more hops at 170F probably won't do much for bitterness. You certainly could whirlpool at 180F or higher, or do a flameout addition and wait some time before chilling, but I feel those methods leave a lot more to be guessed. Plus chilling time and therefore utilization will be a lot different if you ever change systems or scale the recipe. In that case you'd basically be back to the drawing board even with a recipe you had perfected before.

 

[ncbrewer]

Here's another paper on the subject:
https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/
I do hop stands at 190, and the graph in Fig.2 seems about right to my perception.

 

[shanecb]

Here's another paper on the subject:
https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/2016/03/06/an-analysis-of-sub-boiling-hop-utilization/
I do hop stands at 190, and the graph in Fig.2 seems about right to my perception.

That was a great read..thanks for sharing!