When to step up from Extract to All Grain?

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I don’t see any good to reason to start with extract kits. It’s a couple extra simple steps to do all grain.

Given the recent "no boil" NEIPA topics as well as some "no boil" recipes for other styles in Zymurgy, it appears that those who brew with extract are getting enjoyable results with limited time for brewing.

And, for some of us, it's not

• malt extract OR all-grain

but

• malt extract AND all-grain

 

[Davedrinksbeer]

I’m a extract brewer and been one for 6 years now, the reason I do extract is I’m on a time limit for brewing. With 2 young kids it’s hard for me to spend 5+ hours on a brew day doing all grain compared to 3 hours for a extract brew. With that being said over the years I’ve become a pretty good extract brewer, brewing well over a 100 batches thru the years, I’ve won a lot of medals in varies beer categories at the state fair beer contest beating out many all grain beers, my Mint Chocolate Chip Beer was the official beer of the Louisville Tailspin Beer Festival and my West Coast IPA took second place in another local beer contest held by a local brewery. Our local beer club had a brew off between a extract beer and a all grain beer and the extract beer was actually preferred over the all grain. Extract brewing has come a long ways in the past few years, as long as I’m getting fresh ingredients, grains, malts and yeast I’m making great beers. I doubt I’ll ever go all grain, why should I when I’m already making great beer.

 

[EthanH]

Still new at brewing. 9 months in, a dozen extract brews and 10 of the 12 have worked out well. Very simple setup - Gigawort kettle, plastic fermenters and korny kegs with a 2 tap keezer. Happy but itching to jump to the next level. Question is - does All Grain brewing make a better beer or am I just opening up new dimensions of possible frustrations (Mash Temp, PH, storing Grains, etc)? Also I would need a new Kettle and need suggestions. I want to stay in the 5 gallon universe with the thought of having 2 or 3 beers on tap at all times.
I have a decent space to brew and store items (basement room but no sink or vent, so i actually brew on a covered porch) which is fine for now storage and fermentation.
The big question is - does All Grain brewing make a better product if done correctly? Which is the best BIAB kettle setup? Any thoughts or comments from the Pro's?

Lots of good answers here. I'll just add some remarks on the BIAB part...

1. You could already do 2 gal all-grain batches in your gigawort to kinda workshop your process. All you need is a bag.

2. If you are doing 5 gal batches, I highly recommend at least a 15 gallon kettle.

3. I recommend these for storing grain. You can store what's left of a 55 lbs bag after you mill off your first batch and have room for 10-12 lbs of various specialty grains in separate baggies.

 

[Ogilthorpe2]

Add me to the list of guys that have never brewed an extract batch. I just have a thing (my wife considers it a personality disorder) about doing things “from scratch” or as close to it as possible. I read Palmer’s book, and decided immediately that I’d be skipping the extract portion of the brewer‘s education. No offense to anyone doing it, but extract brewing just seems like cheating to me. It’s like baking a cake with a boxed mix. Yeah you might end up with good cake, but did you really MAKE it?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Yeah you might end up with good cake, but did you really MAKE it?

Yes

 

[Lurker]

Another vote for all grain here. I actually only brewed one extract batch many...many years ago, all grain since then. My one recommendation is get yourself a nice electric brewing system. Tons of info on here and price range from 300 bucks to many thousands. I can only vouch for the Grainfather. I love mine and it really makes brewing all grain very straight forward. I would also recommend starting with all grain kits like the ones from morebeer, northern brewer or austin homebrew. Just my 2 cents. Enjoy!

 

[alexrock]

I switched to all-grain after a half-decade of extract brewing. My only regret is not doing it sooner!

Despite the many options available to a new all-grain brewer today, I went with a classic 10-gal cooler + false bottom for my mash, with a single batch-sparge. If you live in a place with relatively clean water, you can make perfectly great beer without water adjustments, but of course, there's always more to optimize for better beer.

While most of my equipment is on the DIY-side, I splurged for a Spike kettle and couldn't be happier. A port really helps filling and draining the kettle. Having a stepped-bottom helps reduce most of the trub in the fermentation bucket, which might not have an impact on flavor, but does make clean-up a lot easier for my plastic fermenters.

Otherwise, after being a few all-grain brews in, the more DIY the better for me so far, as knowing how to repair the equipment is priceless.

I recommend starting cheap, and solving the problems that bother you the most. For me it was heating water, chilling water, and juggling 7 gallons of water in a tiny apartment kitchen, so I solved things a problem at a time (ported kettle, immersion heater, nicer immersion chiller). The mash is honestly the easiest part of the brew for me.

 

[Brews and Blues]

Add me to the list of guys that have never brewed an extract batch. I just have a thing (my wife considers it a personality disorder) about doing things “from scratch” or as close to it as possible. I read Palmer’s book, and decided immediately that I’d be skipping the extract portion of the brewer‘s education. No offense to anyone doing it, but extract brewing just seems like cheating to me. It’s like baking a cake with a boxed mix. Yeah you might end up with good cake, but did you really MAKE it?

This line of thinking is really a never ending spiral though. I honestly don't think it is fair. Ok you brewed it all grain, but you probably, didn't come up with the recipe. And if it is your own recipe, its probably just a tweak of a different recipe. And even if you came up with the recipe 110% on your own, it is still based on the principles of brewing that other people have worked on for centuries. Making beer is like making music. Nothing is truly original. It's all based and influenced by the work of others before us. So did you really MAKE your all grain beer? Or did you just follow directions.

Because being creative or making art isn't about being truly original (or completely all grain in this case). It's about doing something that matters to you and sharing it with others.

I have a beer in a keg at home right now that I did from an extract kit. My friends love it and I'm enjoying every second of making and drinking it. I'm a total noob. But I've put hours into this extract beer between brew day and kegging, cleaning, sanitizing, and learning. There's no way you will convince me that I didn't MAKE that beer.

 

[McKnuckle]

Making beer is like making music. Nothing is truly original. It's all based and influenced by the work of others before us.

As a musician (and perhaps you are one, too), I think this falls apart quickly. Making beer from extract is like piecing together pre-recorded sequences in GarageBand and making a song. Brewing beer from grain is more akin to recording those sequences yourself.

Both are songs, and to the listener, there might be no discernible quality difference. But a different level of skill was required of the composer.

 

[Brews and Blues]

As a musician (and perhaps you are one, too), I think this falls apart quickly. Making beer from extract is like piecing together pre-recorded sequences in GarageBand and making a song. Brewing beer from grain is more akin to recording those sequences yourself.

Both are songs, and to the listener, there might be no discernible quality difference. But a different level of skill was required of the composer.

I would say that is somewhat fair. I used to record a lot of music myself. I sang, played guitar, played bass, played keyboard... but couldn't play the drums. So I used a drum sampler. I would say the extract is a drum sampler.

I guess my point is that it isn't so black and white as in "that's cheating" or "you didn't actually make that"
Just like music, I view it all as a process of learning and practicing the craft.

 

[kgav8r]

For me, it really comes down to what you’d like to accomplish with your brewing. Do you want to clone your favorite store bought? Extract probably won’t let you do that. Do you want to have fast brew days that results in beer you can drink in several styles? Extract may be your target.
I am not entering competitions or even trying to mimic particular styles. I know what I like and what my wife likes, so I stay pretty narrow. At the end of the day, I want a quality beer which I can brew quickly and have flexibility to try something new if I get adventurous. Fermentation temperature control is probably the biggest improvement I’ve made to my process.
I BIAB and probably break a lot of “rules”. I’m using a 21 1/2 quart kettle and a 5gal paint strainer bag. I can mash 10lbs of grain on the stove top using a sous vide cooker for mash temp control. Sometimes I dilute the batch in the fermenter to come up to volume, sometime I do 2 half batches for big beers. Brew days range from 3-6 hours. The point (as above) is do what works for you and give you a beer that meets your goals. My system is low cost, and makes a good beer that I enjoy and my friends enjoy.

 

[Ogilthorpe2]

As a musician (and perhaps you are one, too), I think this falls apart quickly. Making beer from extract is like piecing together pre-recorded sequences in GarageBand and making a song. Brewing beer from grain is more akin to recording those sequences yourself.

Both are songs, and to the listener, there might be no discernible quality difference. But a different level of skill was required of the composer.

I’ve brewed about 70 batches in my “career”. Every one of them all grain, never used a kit, and I only used a recipe for the first 5. When I’m making a new style for the first time, yes I read a lot of other people’s recipes, and the JCB guideline, but then I piece together my own recipes.

I grow some of my own hops, and am looking into sourcing grain to malt myself.

I also make my own Cheese, sauce, and sausage when I make a pizza. One of these days I’ll get around to milling the flour for the crust.

Like I said, my wife thinks I’m nuts the way I obsess over “from scratch”. But that’s just me...you do you.

Also...go Blackhawks.

 

[McKnuckle]

I like analogies.

Long ago before MIDI and sampling and computers, if someone couldn't play an instrument, that instrument wasn't gonna show up on the track. And before recording, there were no tracks at all - one had to play an instrument live to make music.

Thanks to technology, practically anyone can appear to be a musician. But it's not all the same, is it?

It used to be that malt extract was not available as a product, because the technology didn't exist to make it. So people learned how to brew beer and that meant creating wort from grains. Before that, I guess there was a point where if you needed malted barley, you had to malt it yourself. And maybe you had to grow it, too.

I also like the spaghetti sauce analogy. You can make a killer meal with sauce from a jar and no one will be the wiser. But there's a satisfaction in making your own sauce from scratch. And growing the tomatoes and basil in your backyard, and...

These types of choices represent different levels of commitment and possibly different goals. I just think it's wise for people to recognize where their commitment falls along the continuum of those practicing a given craft.

 

[Brownyard]

I would say the extract is a drum sampler.

I like and resemble that remark.

 

[Brews and Blues]

I’ve brewed about 70 batches in my “career”. Every one of them all grain, never used a kit, and I only used a recipe for the first 5. When I’m making a new style for the first time, yes I read a lot of other people’s recipes, and the JCB guideline, but then I piece together my own recipes.

I grow some of my own hops, and am looking into sourcing grain to malt myself.

I also make my own Cheese, sauce, and sausage when I make a pizza. One of these days I’ll get around to milling the flour for the crust.

Like I said, my wife thinks I’m nuts the way I obsess over “from scratch”. But that’s just me...you do you.

Also...go Blackhawks.

I was willing to put our differing opinions to the side until you threw in that last line

 

[Ogilthorpe2]

I was willing to put our differing opinions to the side until you threw in that last line

We had our run, and it was glorious .

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

But, I don’t think the Blues will need to fear the Hawks again anytime soon.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

These types of choices represent different levels of commitment and possibly different goals. I just think it's wise for people to recognize where their commitment falls along the continuum of those practicing a given craft.

“I reject your reality and substitute my own.”

― Adam Savage

I found that the hobby became much more interesting when I started thinking of it as a big bag of ingredients and a big bag of techniques. (There's obviously a set of "essential" techniques - and that's where books like How to Brew can be useful).

 

[NGD]

1. The big question is - does All Grain brewing make a better product if done correctly? 2. Which is the best BIAB kettle setup? 3. Any thoughts or comments from the Pro's?

@Tiki_Jud
1. Better depends on your definition. Certainly AG brewing allows more ability to tweak a recipe to get it just the way you want.
2. Might as well ask which car is the best. Everyone will have a different answer for different reasons. Great thing is there are many fantastic options that weren't available even 5-6 years ago.
3. I should have read this part first. Disregard 1 & 2. I'm a newb.

If you want to give AG a try, @EthanH has great suggestions. Brew up a few 2 gal brews and dial in your technique. I consider myself an extract brewer even though I occasionally do mini-mashes and supplement with extract due to a 5 gal kettle size. I mainly brew extract for the same reason as @Davedrinksbeer . While I haven't done a no-boil yet, I only boil 20 minutes for most recipes, add pre-chilled/frozen RO or distilled water and I'm off for a run or bike ride with the kids in 1.5-2 hrs. Give AG a shot and have fun with it. If anything it will add more tools to your repertoire.

 

[Davedrinksbeer]

Add me to the list of guys that have never brewed an extract batch. I just have a thing (my wife considers it a personality disorder) about doing things “from scratch” or as close to it as possible. I read Palmer’s book, and decided immediately that I’d be skipping the extract portion of the brewer‘s education. No offense to anyone doing it, but extract brewing just seems like cheating to me. It’s like baking a cake with a boxed mix. Yeah you might end up with good cake, but did you really MAKE it?

If you go out and buy a grainfather or any other of those fancy brewing machines is that really brewing beer??? The machine basically does all the brewing for you. Dump in the grains, add some water, push some buttons and your done.

 

[McKnuckle]

It's totally brewing beer. I suspect you know this deep down, and only wish to start a ruckus.

 

[alexrock]

If you turn ingredients into beer and it tastes good congratulations, you're a good homebrewer.

 

[Davedrinksbeer]

It's totally brewing beer. I suspect you know this deep down, and only wish to start a ruckus.

Nope, someone said Extract brewing is like baking a cake and cheating, so is going out and buying a $500-$1,000 beer machine also considered cheating???

 

[Birrofilo]

I am certainly not a pro. I have only brewed 10 beers and the next one will be my first all grain beer.

I think the answer lies also in what kind of beers do you want to brew. If you like beers where the "malt dimension" is very important, such as lagers, then with all grain you have full control of that part of the beer profile.

If you like more beers where the yeast aromatic profile, or the hop profile, is of greater importance, then you can concentrate on learning on those sides (fermentation, hopping) and postpone AG to a later phase.

If you only used hopped extract so far, you might find interesting to switch to the E+G technique. You steep (or in certain cases mash) only the specialty grain, or a small part of base malt, and you typically do all the hopping/boiling phase. This will allow you to familiarize with long boiling sessions, a little bit of mashing, steeping, whirlpooling, use of clarifying agent maybe, getting rid of spent grains, cleaning of wort coolers, dealing with hop pellet debris etc. without having to worry (or worry too much) with degree of grinding of malt, water profile, pH of wort.

This will also allow you to better choose your gear for the future AG phase: how annoying it is for you the vapour which is produced? How much space can you devote to beer making? How much more time?

When you have had your experience with E+G you will decide whether you want to make it "even more complicated" (but more finely controllable) or to just continue with E+G focusing on fermentation, hopping, adjuncts etc.

If you decide for All Grain, you will make a better informed choice between BIAB, BIAP, Three Vessels. As you have a large patio and no space problem, three vessels might be your better path, if you go AG.

I am switching to all grain because I like learning the process (besides drinking the beer), I have let's say an interest in homebrewing itself, but I would find also perfectly reasonable to go no further than extract (E+G+hopping) and spend the rest of my life in cloning Chimay beers, or other Belgian beers which, for what I read, can be reproduced with extracts with a good degree of quality, or very dense wort to make Imperial Stouts, Barley Wines etc. for which it makes sense to make use, at least partially, of extract.

If it's Pilsner or Helles you are after, all grain it's the way to go.

 

[EthanH]

If you're not growing/malting your own grain, growing your own hops, and culturing your yeast from wild strains, are you REALLY brewing beer?

 

[McKnuckle]

Yes that line of argument gets rather silly.

As someone who has brewed with many systems, whether turnkey all-in-one or DIY cobbled together; 1, 2, or 3 vessels; propane, electric, or induction; bottoms, bags, baskets; recirculated or not, temp-controlled or not, etc. etc. - I feel strongly that they all require knowledge and skill.

 

[Iowa Brewer]

All-grain tastes better to me, but that may just be the satisfaction of running the ball the full 100yds. Mash temp is an easily acquired skill, never paid attention to PH. Our water is pretty hard in my part of eastern Iowa, so I buy gallon jugs of spring water (not distilled, which lacks minerals) at the grocery, and grain storage is pretty simple with food-grade buckets from your local home-improvement store. Either way you go, happy brewing!

 

[balrog]

I went extract to partial mash to BIAB as a natural progression.
I tell myself that I like being able to mash at different temps to get different wort fermentability as opposed to taking what the extract maker did. I cannot conclusively tell you that having that control is fun. And frustrating.

As far as:

If you're not growing/malting your own grain, growing your own hops, and culturing your yeast from wild strains, are you REALLY brewing beer?

If you're not creating your own universe with inhabitable planets where grain spontaneously ... oh never mind.

 

[johndan]

If you go out and buy a grainfather or any other of those fancy brewing machines is that really brewing beer??? The machine basically does all the brewing for you. Dump in the grains, add some water, push some buttons and your done.

You know, I probably hoped buying my Grainfather was going to be like buying my InstaPot, but it's certainly not. It takes a couple of tedious or complicated steps out of traditional all-grain brewing but it's still a huge amount of physical labor, troubleshooting, monitoring, etc. The benefits (to me) are (a) not having to use a propane burner, (b) relatedly, being able to just set a target temp instead of tweaking a burner's dial, and (c) only having one main brewing vessel.

Most of the YouTube reviews I watched before I bought the Grainfather made it seem sooooo easy. And maybe for a more experienced brewer it would be (and I hope if that's true, I get there some day). But if you read threads on the Grainfather, you'll see how complicated using it is.

Is using the Grainfather easier than a more traditional all-grain brew? Absolutely. Does it make brewing mindlessly easy? I wish.

 

[dbsmith]

If you're not growing/malting your own grain, growing your own hops, and culturing your yeast from wild strains, are you REALLY brewing beer?

Don't forget, you also need to mine ore and forge your own pots and tools!

 

[Ogilthorpe2]

Nope, someone said Extract brewing is like baking a cake and cheating, so is going out and buying a $500-$1,000 beer machine also considered cheating???

That’s actually not quite what I said, unfortunately much like listening, reading comprehension skills seem to be something few people excel at these days.

What I said was that I am borderline neurotic about doing things from scratch, and that because of that, extract SEEMS like cheating to ME. Therefore, it’s not for me. As I said in another, later post....you do you,

Whatever floats your boat.