When to bottle Berliner using WLP 655

[DurtyChemist]

I brewed a Berliner in October 2014 and it's recently developed a white pelicle across the top. I've since discovered it won't get the sour taste I'm probably looking for for a Berliner. I'm thinking about bottling this and letting it age but I'm not sure if it will continue to sour/age if I do that. My original plan was to let it sit for a year but now I'm thinking a 3% beer (1.030) won't need a year to age and won't change that much.

 

[Oldsock]

If the gravity is stable (month-over-month), there isn't much reason to wait. That is unless you want to add fruit, dry hops, or other flavorings.

 

[DurtyChemist]

If the gravity is stable (month-over-month), there isn't much reason to wait. That is unless you want to add fruit, dry hops, or other flavorings.

Okay. So then why do people leave batches on bugs for a year or longer if it is finished when gravity stabilizes? Is it just because those batches (say ToD) just take that long to finish?

 

[jnacey]

If the gravity is stable (month-over-month), there isn't much reason to wait. That is unless you want to add fruit, dry hops, or other flavorings.

Mike, that blend has pedio in it. My first inclination when reading his post was that is was entirely too early given that there's pedio in there.

If this has been a more traditional Berliner with lacto and sacc and/or brett, I would agree to bottle it as long as gravity is stable. But since there is a host of other bugs in there, I'd say to wait a year.

 

[Oldsock]

Mike, that blend has pedio in it. My first inclination when reading his post was that is was entirely too early given that there's pedio in there.

If this has been a more traditional Berliner with lacto and sacc and/or brett, I would agree to bottle it as long as gravity is stable. But since there is a host of other bugs in there, I'd say to wait a year.

Why? You are correct that because the blend has more attenuative microbes (Brett and Pedio) it makes a stable gravity at three months less likely. However, it doesn't change the fact that if the gravity is stable, it is safe to bottle.

Assuming a “standard” Berliner weisse wort (~1.030, mashed around 150F, no specialty malts) I doubt it’ll take a year. Most of my Berliners have Brett, and some have Pedio, and they are usually ready to bottle by 3-4 months.

 

[jnacey]

Why? You are correct that because the blend has more attenuative microbes (Brett and Pedio) it makes a stable gravity at three months less likely. However, it doesn't change the fact that if the gravity is stable, it is safe to bottle.



Assuming a “standard” Berliner weisse wort (~1.030, mashed around 150F, no specialty malts) I doubt it’ll take a year. Most of my Berliners have Brett, and some have Pedio, and they are usually ready to bottle by 3-4 months.

Hrm, now I'm curious. So would you say that the reason other sour producers keep beer in barrels (ie for lambic) for a year+ do that because they start at a higher gravity or want some other character that bottling early would prohibit?

 

[kingwood-kid]

I probably shouldn't answer for Mike, even if I did read his book, but I'll propose a few theories. A higher starting gravity certainly means more sugars for the microbes to work their way through. I suppose that would take extra time, especially if the wort was turbid-mashed, which is usually the case with Lambics and not with Berliners.

But even if the gravity was stable, the flavor wouldn't be. Homebrewers rarely blend, so bottling presents no issues on that front, aside from being taunted by bottles not yet at their best. Lambic producers will sample however many barrels/foeders they have and make a blend from them in the proportions they desire. I would think that would be a less-risky proposition if the flavor was relatively set. Plus, Lambic producers have a tendency to do things the way they do because that's how they've always been done.

 

[jnacey]

I probably shouldn't answer for Mike, even if I did read his book, but I'll propose a few theories. A higher starting gravity certainly means more sugars for the microbes to work their way through. I suppose that would take extra time, especially if the wort was turbid-mashed, which is usually the case with Lambics and not with Berliners.

But even if the gravity was stable, the flavor wouldn't be. Homebrewers rarely blend, so bottling presents no issues on that front, aside from being taunted by bottles not yet at their best. Lambic producers will sample however many barrels/foeders they have and make a blend from them in the proportions they desire. I would think that would be a less-risky proposition if the flavor was relatively set. Plus, Lambic producers have a tendency to do things the way they do because that's how they've always been done.

Fair enough. Thanks!

 

[Oldsock]

I probably shouldn't answer for Mike, even if I did read his book, but I'll propose a few theories. A higher starting gravity certainly means more sugars for the microbes to work their way through. I suppose that would take extra time, especially if the wort was turbid-mashed, which is usually the case with Lambics and not with Berliners.

But even if the gravity was stable, the flavor wouldn't be. Homebrewers rarely blend, so bottling presents no issues on that front, aside from being taunted by bottles not yet at their best. Lambic producers will sample however many barrels/foeders they have and make a blend from them in the proportions they desire. I would think that would be a less-risky proposition if the flavor was relatively set. Plus, Lambic producers have a tendency to do things the way they do because that's how they've always been done.

Agreed. Lambics are still young at 1 year, often with enough fermentables remaining to carbonate a gueuze.

To add to this though, barrel aging will allow for different changes compared to a bottle. If you are aging in a carboy without oak, there really isn't much difference between that and bottling (other than pressure - which I find accelerates Brett character).

 

[DurtyChemist]

Agreed. Lambics are still young at 1 year, often with enough fermentables remaining to carbonate a gueuze.

To add to this though, barrel aging will allow for different changes compared to a bottle. If you are aging in a carboy without oak, there really isn't much difference between that and bottling (other than pressure - which I find accelerates Brett character).

So even though it's been sitting three months and the gravity might not have changed for the past month it would be okay to bottle it?

I was told this blend takes a really long time to get sour. I don't have any sour taste and only a small pelicle.

 

[Oldsock]

So even though it's been sitting three months and the gravity might not have changed for the past month it would be okay to bottle it?

I was told this blend takes a really long time to get sour. I don't have any sour taste and only a small pelicle.

What is the gravity now?

 

[DurtyChemist]

what is the gravity now?

1.008

 

[Oldsock]

1.008

I'd wait, that is pretty low attenuation for a Berliner. Some of the microbes may not have really gotten going yet. Warm it up and see if it doesn't drop even .001 in the next month.

 

[DurtyChemist]

I'd wait, that is pretty low attenuation for a Berliner. Some of the microbes may not have really gotten going yet. Warm it up and see if it doesn't drop even .001 in the next month.

Still 1.008 and still not sour. It might be sour but really light and I'm expecting more but it hasn't changed gravity. Keg it?

 

[brewguyver]

Based on my experience, and from what Jamil said on Brew Strong, this blend will never get that sour. What I found is it makes a nice crisp lawn mower beer with some slight tartness. I was a big fan of the beers I had - it just wasn't what I expected. I had a few bottles after a year and they only got a little more sour.

My point is you shouldn't have to wait to bottle, and you might not get anything out of waiting either.

A few side notes - since this has bacteria keep the equipment (anything plastic) separate from all your other feet. Also I bottled mine to be 4.5 vols CO2 which was great, but I used heavy duty bottles.

 

[DurtyChemist]

Based on my experience, and from what Jamil said on Brew Strong, this blend will never get that sour. What I found is it makes a nice crisp lawn mower beer with some slight tartness. I was a big fan of the beers I had - it just wasn't what I expected. I had a few bottles after a year and they only got a little more sour.

My point is you shouldn't have to wait to bottle, and you might not get anything out of waiting either.

A few side notes - since this has bacteria keep the equipment (anything plastic) separate from all your other feet. Also I bottled mine to be 4.5 vols CO2 which was great, but I used heavy duty bottles.

Okay I was thinking of legging it since FG hasn't changed for 3 months.

As far as changing plastic I disagree. I have faith that sanatizer a kill bacteria. And anything that can live through a pH of 4 plus alcohol for 6 months is EXTREMELY rare and noth anything to be worried about.


I'm very disappointed in this Sour Mix on such a simple beer. I don't see myself trying it again when it hasn't changed for 3 months even with increased pelicle activity. If it DOES get sour I'd expect Chris White to give a minimum timeline to sour a beer. I could have purchased Gigayeast lacto and a popular ale yeast and had this beer ready 4 months ago.

 

[brewguyver]

FYI - when I do a sour mash, I do it around 4.5. Lacto survives at pretty low ph. Also plastic hoses and buckets can be porous - sanitizer only works if it can get to the lacto.

Brett, on the other hand, is just yeast and dies just like yeast.

Mix and match if you want, but you're headed down a road of trouble.

 

[rupert130]

Most lacto strains are intolerant of IBUs higher than ~10, so would not likely infect most beers even if it continued to live in the plastic.

It is still advisable to maintain seperate equipment for sours and clean beers.