When Is Your Brew Legally Considered Wine/Beer

[Lunaras]

Hi Everyone!

I'm in the planning stages of getting my brewing equipment and I've read quite a bit on the forum and learned a ton, so thanks to everyone for such a great community!

I am curious about one thing though and after reading and searching through the forum, I can't seem to find any discussions on it. I know the US legal limits of 100/200 gallons, but I can't seem to find when your brew is counted towards that limit. Essentially, when is your must/wort/etc considered mead/wine/beer/etc? Is it when it's pitched, done fermenting, bottled/kegged, aged?

For example if I were to pitch 150 gallons of mead this year with the intention of aging it until I bottle it at some point next year, and next year I made 150 gallons of beer that didn't require any aging, and so was able to bottle them next year, did I make 150 gallons per year or 0 gallons one year and 300 gallons the next, or some combination of the two depending on when fermentation (or whatever cutoff is used) is complete?

Also, am I correct in assuming that waste is not counted in those totals? I.e., if I get 20x 750 ml bottles out of a 5 gallon batch due to spills, gravity measurements, racking waste, etc, I would assume I just made about 4 gallons, not the 5 gallons I started with. Is that correct?

All this stems from curiosity rather than actual concern over being anywhere near the limits (at least for a few years). However, with that said, I primarily plan to brew mead and want to try aging some of it for multiple years, so I don't want to afoul of the law by bottling 200+ gallons in a year that have been bulk aging for various lengths of time.

And yes, I'm aware that unless I were to tell, no government agency would ever likely know (or probably even care). I would just like to keep everything legit to avoid potential issues in the future.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[BGBC]

Changes from must/wort to mead/beer when the yeast is pitched.

 

[Lunaras]

Thanks for the quick reply!

So, if I drop a 5 gallon glass carboy after pitching, my batch gets infected, or I had any other lesser waste, legally, I made 5 gallons, regardless of the amount that is actually fit for consumption?

 

[BGBC]

Thanks for the quick reply!

So, if I drop a 5 gallon glass carboy after pitching, my batch gets infected, or I had any other lesser waste, legally, I made 5 gallons, regardless of the amount that is actually fit for consumption?

It was produced, I think that's all that matters technically under the law.

 

[Lunaras]

Thanks!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

It was produced, I think that's all that matters technically under the law.

This.

Excerpt from Oklahoma ABLE Commission Title 37;

" ...Provided, further that nothing herein shall prevent a person from making beer, as defined by Section 506 of this title, cider or wine as defined by Section 506 of this title, by simple fermentation and without distillation for personal use if the maker of such beverages has first applied for and possesses a valid personal use permit issued by the Alcoholic Beverage Laws Enforcement Commission as provided in Section 4 of this act and the total volume of beer, cider or wine produced in any given calendar year is less that two hundred (200) gallons."

YJMV.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

Homebrew becomes legal or illegal as soon as you tell someone you make and possess it...

 

[PlexVector]

As in all things except sin, it's only illegal if you get caught.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

This.

Excerpt from Oklahoma ABLE Commission Title 37;

" ...Provided, further that nothing herein shall prevent a person from making beer, as defined by Section 506 of this title, cider or wine as defined by Section 506 of this title, by simple fermentation and without distillation for personal use if the maker of such beverages has first applied for and possesses a valid personal use permit issued by the Alcoholic Beverage Laws Enforcement Commission as provided in Section 4 of this act and the total volume of beer, cider or wine produced in any given calendar year is less that two hundred (200) gallons."

YJMV.

Isn't Oklahoma's abv limit insanely low too... like 3.5% or something, but have no reservations when it comes to hard liquors?

That's just crazy...

 

[PlexVector]

...YJMV.

YJMV? Your Judgement May Vary?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Isn't Oklahoma's abv limit insanely low too... like 3.5% or something, but have no reservations when it comes to hard liquors?

That's just crazy...

No. We have two regulatory agencies. ABLE and Health commissions. ABLE regulates everything over 3.2% and health regulates anything under. Health requires the product to be refrigerated and allows the sale at grocers and convenience stores.

Current laws prohibits high point (over 3.2%) (wine, beer, cider, mead, spirits) to be sold anywhere but in bottle shops, restaurants, and bars. And prohibits refrigerated sales of bottles except in restaurants and bars. Further restrictions require that said bottles sold in restaurants and bars cannot leave the premises.

There have been lobbies to change these laws to allow high point to be sold in grocers and gas stations and refrigerated.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

YJMV? Your Judgement May Vary?

I was going for Jurisdiction but ...

 

[kombat]

The US has some crazy laws. How come you can pilot an airplane at 16, join the military and kill people at 18, but you have to be 21 before they'll trust you with a Miller Lite?

 

[Gameface]

Isn't Oklahoma's abv limit insanely low too... like 3.5% or something, but have no reservations when it comes to hard liquors?

That's just crazy...

I believe they have the same abv limit as Utah does, which is 4%, but most people call it "3.2" beer because 4%abv comes out to 3.2%abw and since 3.2 is lower than 4 when people complain they like to use the lower number, even though that's not how anyone measures alcohol percentage.

And I'm not sure about OK, but in Utah the 4%abv limit only applies to beer sold in regular stores and beer poured from a tap. At the state run liquor store you can buy "strong" beer, or you can buy it in bottles or cans at a bar or restaurant with a liquor licence.

 

[BGBC]

This.

Excerpt from Oklahoma ABLE Commission Title 37;

" ...Provided, further that nothing herein shall prevent a person from making beer, as defined by Section 506 of this title, cider or wine as defined by Section 506 of this title, by simple fermentation and without distillation for personal use if the maker of such beverages has first applied for and possesses a valid personal use permit issued by the Alcoholic Beverage Laws Enforcement Commission as provided in Section 4 of this act and the total volume of beer, cider or wine produced in any given calendar year is less that two hundred (200) gallons."

YJMV.

The permit piece of this is interesting to me. I didn't realize that was a thing. Just looked up the NJ law, and there's a note in the state FAQ that a permit is no longer required.

Phew!

 

[JosephN]

So I am suppose to have a permit to make beer? That's hogwash.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

The permit piece of this is interesting to me. I didn't realize that was a thing. Just looked up the NJ law, and there's a note in the state FAQ that a permit is no longer required.

Phew!

This law is actually fairly new. A few years ago there was no inclusion of beer in the statute. Thus, beer was illegal by omission. The law was amended to include beer and the permit requirement.

The permit is free.

Several people went in a tizzy because it did not specifically include for mead but the definition of wine includes the use of honey.

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

I have yet to make 200 gallons a year, but I have also yet to be audited on any kind of production amount. Just don't have 200 gallons in your possession :wink:

 

[agrazela]

YJMV.

Your Jesus Maligns VeryHoppyIPA's?

To the OP. Too late. NSA already intercepted this thread, FBI and ATF are on their way to Waco your butt right now!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

So I am suppose to have a permit to make beer? That's hogwash.

Meh. It's free, takes 2 minutes to fill out the application.

No-one actually cared before or after the statute amendment. The real issue arose because beerfests began rejecting homebrew club participation for legal liability.

I like the permit. It's a piece of paper that proves I have the legal right to posses and use what many assume to be a distillery.

 

[Lunaras]

Your Jesus Maligns VeryHoppyIPA's?

To the OP. Too late. NSA already intercepted this thread, FBI and ATF are on their way to Waco your butt right now!

Well if they're going to come, I hope they come soon since I haven't gotten any of my equipment and the only 'supplies' I have are partial gallons of OJ and apple juice in the fridge, a bear of honey in the cabinet, and bread machine yeast (or I guess wild yeast floating in the air).

I guess I could make 200 gallons of, what, 0.002% ABV water with all that.

 

[OswaldvW]

Where do you get the permit?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Where do you get the permit?

Mail/fax/email in the application, they mail/email back the permit. Ours are issued by the ABLE Commission directly.

 

[BGBC]

Where do you get the permit?

Check your state laws. Just guessing, without looking at all of the statutes, but it seems like requiring a permit is the exception, not the norm.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrewing-rights/statutes/

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Check your state laws. Just guessing, without looking at all of the statutes, but it seems like requiring a permit is the exception, not the norm.

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/homebrewing-rights/statutes/

This.

 

[thekraken]

I like the permit. It's a piece of paper that proves I have the legal right to posses and use what many assume to be a distillery.

Erhmmm.

"F*** em" is what I would say... but I'm kind of contrary when it comes to that sort of thing.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Erhmmm.

"F*** em" is what I would say... but I'm kind of contrary when it comes to that sort of thing.

Yeah, that doesn't work when the police come out to investigate a complaint about a guy "running a still in his garage".

The one from ABLE does (in Oklahoma at least).

 

[j1n]

Yeah, that doesn't work when the police come out to investigate a complaint about a guy "running a still in his garage".

The one from ABLE does (in Oklahoma at least).

Just do what they did during prohibition. Give em a bottle and some cash and send them on their way.

that a hell of a lot better then arresting and doing paper work.

 

[thekraken]

My hang up is the part where you said you "like" the permit. I understand the need, for you okies at least.

 

[oujens]

Isn't Oklahoma's abv limit insanely low too... like 3.5% or something, but have no reservations when it comes to hard liquors?

That's just crazy...

Only 3.2% ABV can be sold in grocery stores and/or in a cooler. All craft beer must be sold at a liquor store and cannot be refrigerated. This also means you cannot buy craft beer on Sundays or after liquor stores close (think about the local breweries having to deal with this). There is talk of reform, but the owners of the liquor stores are putting up a fight to prevent it. The consumer really gets hit because I think these laws prevent more out-of-state breweries from bringing beer to Oklahoma. Personally, I think both liquor stores and consumers would benefit from reform. It's time. I grew up in Oklahoma and love it, but it always seems to be several years behind on everything.