What's with the fraction of oz measurements in recipes?

[Zoidberg]

I use exact numbers and have weighted out 3.576 grams of a grain or exactly 1.237 ounces of a hop. I do odd batch sizes a lot and like to stick to original recipes to get a feel if I like it before I tinker.

Sometimes its my own recipes too maybe I don't think my beer is bitter enough but another .25ounces of a 15%AA hop at 90min could be overboard so I would only add .1 or .15 ounces to it.

Somebody commented about not understanding why somebody would stress over these tiny increments and I agree, DO NOT STRESS the small percentages but my scale is that accurate and my software gives me exact amounts based on percentages so I will utilize it

 

[LandoLincoln]

dobe12. That is my point. I can understand a full oz. but a fraction of an ounce is a little much. Most of the time rounding to the nearest 1/4 lb is fine for base malt. The nearest ounce may be fine for specialty grains.

It's caused either by scaling a recipe up or down or moving from metric to English.

Just round to the nearest half-pound if a base malt or quarter pound if specialty malt. No big deal.

 

[beergolf]

The original post was about fractions of an ounce of base grains .3 of an ounce of base grain is insignificant. and makes no sense.

.3 of an ounce of high AA hops can make a big difference, so it does make sense.

 

[boydster]

Rounding would be 3.6 oz. Truncating would be 3.5 oz

Depends on how you define your units. Round 3.56 oz to the nearest half ounce... Or quarter ounce...

 

[Weezy]

Just round to the nearest half-pound if a base malt or quarter pound if specialty malt. No big deal.

I'm sorry, but there isn't much of a worse recommendation to be found on this site.

 

[beergolf]

OK let's keep this on track. The original post was about base grains. Not hops.

We are dealing with an ORGANIC product. The variances of each batch of base grain will have a different amount of flavor and amount of sugar. Each batch will be different. When was the grain grown? where was it grown? How was it stored? How old is it? See where I am going with this? there are too many variables to obsess about a fraction of an ounce of base grains.

This reminds me of when I had a custom furniture business. I built a custom office for an engineer. When I delivered it he said that there seemed like a little too much play in the file drawers. He pulled out a micrometer and started measuring the tolerances. He complained that they were several thousandth of an inch out of spec. The engineer in him did not understand that wood is an organic product and his home office was not a temperature and humidity controlled environment. I told him to measure it in two days ( I knew a storm was coming) and he would get a different reading. It took him taking readings for several weeks for me to convince him that wood changes with temp and humidity.

My point is that grain is an organic product and you will never replicate exactly a recipe by measuring to the tenth of an ounce of base grain. Actuallyeven hops, where a tenth of an ounce is a bigger percentage of the total,still we are dealing with a product that changes with time. How old are the hops? How were they stored?

Get my point?

 

[morticaixavier]

I really doubt you could tell the difference in a recipe that has 39.5 grams compared to 42 grams for any specific addition. I'm sorry, I just don't buy it.

well, I guess we will have to disagree on that. or you can send me three bottles of beer in any combination of all the same, two the same or three different and I'll try to tell them apart.

also, not just any specific addition. I doubt I could pick out an extra 2.5 grams of aroma hops but high alpha hops boiled for 60-90 minutes? I might be able to do that. I don't think I could pick out .06 ounces of 2 row though.

 

[beergolf]

I don't think I could pick out .06 ounces of 2 row though.

My point exactly. I was talking about base grains, not high alpha hops.

 

[morticaixavier]

My point exactly. I was talking about base grains, not high alpha hops.

I will grant that dobe12 and I got off on a side argument re: the value of metric measurements in brewing. but I agree. I generally formulate my recipes to use round number quantities of everything. I even round water salt additions to the nearest gram.

 

[beergolf]

Metric makes so much more sense. We should have switched to metric many years ago. So much easier.

 

[Weezy]

My point is that grain is an organic product and you will never replicate exactly a recipe by measuring to the tenth of an ounce of base grain. Actuallyeven hops, where a tenth of an ounce is a bigger percentage of the total,still we are dealing with a product that changes with time. How old are the hops? How were they stored?

Get my point?

Lets imagine a hypothetical brew day....

You pull up your recipe,

It calls for 3.362 pounds of pilsner malt.

You say, pffffft, 3.4 lb it is!

You put your bucket on the scale and start pouring your pilsner malt into it. The scale reads up and up....1.642 lb...1.935 lb...2.811 lb...3.285 lb..you start slowing down...3.299...3.310...3.320...3.362...3.400

Why bother rounding? You've still got to measure the weight.

 

[geoffm33]

Agreed. Since you are measuring anyway, the rounded number is as arbitrary as the original.

I see value if an order calls for 1.07 lbs of carapils and you grab the 1lb bag ofF the shelf at the LHBS.

 

[Fionnbharr]

What's with the use of 'imperial' units in the US, anyways?

The official units used here are the 'metric' ones. By an act of Congress in 1866 (That's the 19th Century, not the 20th), H.R. 596, the Metric System became the standard in the United States. President Johnson (Andrew, not Lyndon B.) signed it into law.

http://www.nist.gov/pml/wmd/metric/upload/HR-596-Metric-Law-1866.pdf

Also, The U.S. Omnibus Trade and Competitiveness Act of 1988 designated “the metric system of measurement as the preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce.” U.S. Public Law 110-69 in 2007.

Just FYI.

 

[beergolf]

Here is another point.

Listen to this interview with John Kimmich of Headdy Topper fame.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/homebrew-advice-alchemists-john-kimmich-464738/

He talks about each batch being slightly different because the ingredients change. So does it make sense for a home brewer to measure down to the fraction of an ounce of base grain trying to be precise?

You will never produce the exact same beer each and every time. You will get close but as the ingredients ( which are organic ) will change slightly with every batch, so obsessing about a fraction of an ounce is just folly.

 

[Weezy]

Then why measure? Just throw în a handful of this, two handfuls of that. It'll never be the same again anyways right?

Do we just shake the bag of DME over the splash of water when we prepare our starters?

Do we grab any random tablespoon when we measure sugar to add for bottle conditioning?

I give up. You win. Round to the nearest handful and brew a random beer every time, chock up any differences to organic ingredients.

You're arguing accuracy. I'm arguing precision. Two very different things.

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/math/accuracy-versus-precision

 

[beergolf]

Then why measure? Just throw în a handful of this, two handfuls of that. It'll never be the same again anyways right?

Do we just shake the bag of DME over the splash of water when we prepare our starters?

Do we grab any random tablespoon when we measure sugar to add for bottle conditioning?

I give up. You win. Round to the nearest handful and brew a random beer every time, chock up any differences to organic ingredients.

You're arguing accuracy. I'm arguing precision.

I am not saying to be random. But measuring BASE GRAINS down to the tenth of an ounce makes no sense.

Being precise with bottling sugar was never brought up. I measure that to the 1/10 of an ounce. I measure out my starters very accurately also. But a. tenth of an ounce of base grains ina 12 lb recipe is being anal.

 

[mtnagel]

It comes down to how far off you are. 0.1 oz off out of 10 lbs of base malt is 0.065% off. 0.1 oz off out of 5 oz of priming sugar is 2% off. Which one are you more comfortable with?

 

[beergolf]

It comes down to how far off you are. 0.1 oz off out of 10 lbs of base malt is 0.065% off. 0.1 oz off out of 5 oz of priming sugar is 2% off. Which one are you more comfortable with?

You get my point. I never mentioned hops or priming sugar. I just mentioned BASE GRAINS.

Sure being accurate with smaller amounts is more important. .1 oz in a 1 oz hop addition is a 10% change. Not what my original post was about.

 

[Zoidberg]

Let me ask one question.

Is it easier to measure to 10.00 lbs than 9.90 lbs ( or 9.95) does it just "feel" better to have even amounts to you?

 

[bob1852]

My recipes are based off of base grain additions that equal a 50lb sack of 2-row.

12 + 10 + 10 + 9 + 9 leaves me with no random handfuls of grain after five batches.

 

[beergolf]

Let me ask one question.

Is it easier to measure to 10.00 lbs than 9.90 lbs ( or 9.95) does it just "feel" better to have even amounts to you?

Let me get back to the original post. I was talking about tenths of an ounce of base grain, not tenths of a pound. Big difference. Make it even ounces not 8 lbs 4.3. oz. Why not 8 lbs 4 oz? .3 oz of BASE GRAIN is not going to make any difference.

 

[widsith]

You get my point. I never mentioned hops or priming sugar. I just mentioned BASE GRAINS.



Sure being accurate with smaller amounts is more important. .1 oz in a 1 oz hop addition is a 10% change. Not what my original post was about.

But even there, the alpha acids concentration can vary within a particular hop type by more than 10%. If the recipe calls for 0.5oz of Simcoe and I accidentally shake out a bit too much and find myself with 0.55oz on the scale, I'm not worrying about it.

As far as base grains go, it seems to me that the important number is the ratio of grain to batch size, and I doubt that those people measuring grains down to three decimal places are employing equal precision in measuring their water quantities.


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[widsith]

Let me ask one question.



Is it easier to measure to 10.00 lbs than 9.90 lbs ( or 9.95) does it just "feel" better to have even amounts to you?

No, but it is easier to measure 10.0 lbs than 9.95, 9.90 or 10.00 lbs.


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[beergolf]

As far as base grains go, it seems to me that the important number is the ratio of grain to batch size, and I doubt that those people measuring grains down to three decimal places are employing equal precision in measuring their water quantities.

You get the point . There are so many variables in brewing that .3 of an ounce in a 12 lb grain bill is just being pure anal.

How accurate is your boil off estimation? Let's take into account the temp and relative humidity. That can change a lot. Can you hit your final volume down to the oz? I think not. So putting a fraction of an ounce into a recipe is being anal.

 

[Weezy]

So if someone hands you a recipe that calls for 3.362 lbs of pilsner, you're going to make the extra effort to change it to 3.4 lbs on paper then take the time to *precisely* measure out 3.4 labs on the scale, when you could have more easily just measured out 3.362 lbs to begin with. Doesn't that smell futile? why bother tweaking numbers for no other reason than your subconscious tells you that nice, simple, even numbers look nice???? You're going to expend the same effort in measuring 3.4 lbs or 3.362 labs when you get right down to it.

You've spent a tremendous amount of time trying to argue specifics to help your case...its variable organics, it doesn't matter.... its just base grains, it doesn't matter. Why not just be as *precise* as you are with all the other parts of your brew process???? i.e. measuring dme for starters, measuring hops, measuring specialty grains. Not using a common method or practice is actually more effort.

O.1 lbs of base gran difference *doesn't* matter... but why bother go to the extra effort to change it?

 

[TallDan]

How accurate is your boil off estimation? Let's take into account the temp and relative humidity. That can change a lot. Can you hit your final volume down to the oz? I think not. So putting a fraction of an ounce into a recipe is being anal.

More or less anal than arguing about it on the internet?

 

[ChocolateMaltyBalls]

OK let's keep this on track. The original post was about base grains. Not hops.

Even though your post was specifically about the silliness of measuring grains to the millionth decimal place, it brings up the larger issue of how recipes are spread and how a good recipe is written. As others have said, simply reporting the weights of ingredients is not really sufficient to tell someone how to replicate your beer. Giving grains as percentages, putting hops in terms of IBUs, color in SRM, and a general description of flavor is a much better recipe. It gives a brewer what he/she needs to actually make something resembling the target beer. Everyone knows there are large variations in technique, equipment (efficiency), and available ingredients (malting profiles, alpha acid content, etc). But a lot of recipes ignore this. Telling me to add 1oz of cascade at 60min is nearly useless. There can be huge variations in AA% within the same harvest on the same farm.

BTW, I'm sure this seems a little knitpicky, but homebrewing has evolved a lot since the days of dusty cans of hopped LME with expired dry yeast taped to the top. But for some reason our recipes are often stuck in the past.

Anyway I'll climb off my soap box now.



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[beergolf]

OK let me put it this way. Again my original post is about base malt not hops or priming sugar, or anything else. I ageee with the hops part because the volumes are so much smaller, so a little can make a big difference.

There are a lot of variables in brewing.

To give a grain bill of 12 lb 4.3 oz of grain is being anal. Do you really think that the .3 oz is going to make a difference?

Each malter has variables. So 12 lbs from one malter will not be the same as 12 lbs from another. Each batch has variables. What about all the other variables of the brewing process? Do you control the mash pH to the fraction. Not. 5.2, but 5.235. I guess not. How about water volumes. Do you measure it to the fraction of an ounce. I seriously doubt it. How about boil off? can you get your after boil volumes down to the fraction of an ounce? I seriously doubt it.

So to trying to get your grain down to the tenth of an ounce is just rediculous.The closest ounce is fine. A fraction of an ounce in a 12 lb grain bill with the variables from each malter makes it a statistical no wash.

 

[Weezy]

You don't even acknowledge any one else's arguments. You're just repeating yourself.

You can't reason someone out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into.

 

[EoinMag]

I say use metric and screw that stupid Oz measurement, problem solved.