What the heck is going on with this batch?

[DVCNick]

Will add details below..

 

[Dgallo]

That’s a pellicle, means you have a wild yeast or bacterial infection.

 

[DVCNick]

Particulars:
-Second batch in the Fermentasaurus
-Brewed Nov 24th, not under pressure for the main bulk part of the fermentation
-Figured I would try cold crashing before dry hopping this time. Cold crashed on 12/12. Prior to starting the cold crash, everything looked completely normal, would have thought it was done at that point.
-Warmed it back up and dry hopped on 12/15 in the upper 60's.
-The spunding valve was showing around 6psi at dry hopping time.
-Was going to cold crash again today and keg tommorrow, but when I took the cover off today I saw these bubbles around the edge (not in the middle). Pressure was about 12psi and it was churning a little, looking like it was fermenting again.
-Vented the pressure down to about 9psi. Churning noticeably increased. I'm assuming some of that is C02 coming out of solution due to the lower pressure?

Those bubbles don't look good to be, but then again I don't see anything that looks like a pellcile. There are currently a lot of dry hops floating though, which muddys the picture a bit.

Cold crash? Let it ride? Chance of infection?
Thanks

 

[DVCNick]

That’s a pellicle, means you have a wild yeast or bacterial infection.

I've never had an infected batch to my knowledge so might not know exactly what I'm looking at, but I've seen a lot of close up pictures of pellicile and I don't "think" this is one? Never had bubbles like this though. Looking really close, I just see what looks like dry hop fragments.

Also the timing as outlined above, it had over two weeks and wes looking still and normal before the first cold crash, then this just showed now three days after dry hopping.

 

[Dgallo]

I've never had an infected batch to my knowledge so might not know exactly what I'm looking at, but I've seen a lot of close up pictures of pellicile and I don't "think" this is one? Never had bubbles like this though. Looking really close, I just see what looks like dry hop fragments.

Also the timing as outlined above, it had over two weeks and wes looking still and normal before the first cold crash, then this just showed now three days after dry hopping.

Infections take time to show themselves. The wild bacteria or yeast needs time to reproduce and populate before it creates a pellicile

 

[Dgallo]

What’s your call @RPh_Guy

 

[RPh_Guy]

I also think it looks like a pellicle, but only maybe 60% sure.

My advice is the same either way:
Taste it.
If it's fine, treat it like normal.
Thorough cleaning afterwards.

 

[DVCNick]

Dammit.
Will large bubbles like that ever appear if it is NOT infected?

 

[day_trippr]

What malts were actually used in this brew?

I'm inclined to come in lower on the probability scale: that looks closer to "within normal limits" than infected...

Cheers!

 

[DVCNick]

Malt bill:

Pale Malt: Brewers Malt, 2-row (Rahr) 11.00 75.9%
Vienna Malt: Goldpils® Vienna Malt (Briess) 1.00 6.9%
Pale Ale Malt: Pale Ale Malt (Rahr) 1.00 6.9%
Melanoidin Malt: Melanoidin Malt (Weyermann) 0.50 3.4%
Munich Malt: Bonlander® Munich Malt 10L (Briess) 0.50 3.4%
Dextrin Malt: Carapils® (Briess) 0.50 3.4%

 

[day_trippr]

OK, good to know. Was kinda hoping to see some "gluey" grains but let's move on.

One possibility, given the timing, is the "churning" you're seeing 3 days post dry-hop is due to enzymatic action provided by said hops resulting in additional fermentable sugars for the yeast extant to chew up. This is a known phenomenon that could easily explain the bubbles, though tbh while I've seen more muted evidence of the process I don't recall any real roiling of the fermentor - and I brew in 6.5 gallon italian glass.

What to do now? I'd take an immediate gravity check (with a hydro, preferably) then take another in three days or so. If the gravity is stable you can move on to packaging. And wrt to that, if kegging, set aside a half cup or so and cover it with plastic wrap, then keg and condition in whatever manner you use. Keep an eye for anything weird going on in that sample and proceed accordingly (ie: if something bursts out and tries to attack you, dump the keg )

If bottling, the risk is the gravity isn't really stable and you're building grenades. I'd be extra certain activity has ceased before packaging in glass...

Cheers!

 

[DVCNick]

New pic

 

[DVCNick]

I just rapidly dropped another 2psi out of the fermenter and the churning instantly increased. There is almost a fresh krausen that has quickly developed, and the outer ring containing the big bubbles has also foamed up quick.

I think there is a lot of C02 coming out of solution as I'm dropping the pressure?

Whatever I'd hoped to drop out with the first cold crash is now very much stirred up... lesson learned on that one I think... I guess the pressure has to stay way low to keep it still as it heats back up.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Will large bubbles like that ever appear if it is NOT infected?

I don't believe that is normal behavior for any commercial yeast, which is why I think it might be a pellicle.
Without a color change it's hard to say definitively from a photo. If you can tell there's a solid film, that pretty much means that it is indeed a pellicle.

If it is contaminated, it does not mean the batch is ruined, so again, I would treat it normally and not worry too much.

Dry hoping can definitely kick up fermentation, and pressure release does indeed cause bubbling, so it's not the presence of bubbles that's concerning, it's the size in my opinion. Large persistent bubbles indicate there may be a film.

There aren't studies on bubble size and shape.... Pro brewers aren't peaking in their 20bbl fermenters looking at the kräusen. They're testing for wild microbes in a lab, or not at all.
We just have to rely on experience, which is constrained by the fact that when something weird happens that's not definitive, we really don't know whether wild microbes are present so we can't really learn from it. For example someone may have seen large bubbles one time, but maybe his batch was contaminated too.

I only ever see large bubbles with wild microbes. Admittedly I don't do a lot of dry hopping because I don't want to deal with associated issues like hop creep, oxidation, contamination, etc.

FYI you don't need to put clear beer in a keg for it to come out clear. Floating dip tubes are wonderful tools.

Cheers

 

[DVCNick]

Ok the sample is real foamy, trying to get it to go down, but I think it is at around 1.020.... last time I made this recipe the calculator estimated 1.019 and I actually measured 1.017.

Taste seems ok... I don't detect anything offensive in it.

In an effort to get a less foamy sample I dropped the fermenter pressure to 3psi, it churned quite a bit and I have a fresh new "krausen" now... the bubbles I originally posted about have been entirely consumed by it and are no longer visible at all.

 

[DVCNick]

One other note.... to dry hop I vented ALL the pressure, took the lid off for literally about 5 seconds, then replaced it, and ran some bottle gas in and purged the headspace several times... hopefully that should minimize any oxygen issues.

However, when I dropped the pressure the first time to take the lid off, there was hardly any foaming; only a little around where the dry hops actually hit the surface. Nothing like what I'm seeing now just from dropping the pressure a couple PSI.

Seems like the beer should have had just as much CO2 in solution then as now, and the temp is basically the same too.

 

[RPh_Guy]

As we mentioned, hops have enzymes that break down dextrins into fermentable sugars, so there definitely is a non-contamination-related explanation for continued fermentation after adding hops.

I don't want to go down the oxidation rabbit hole.

 

[Positronic_Matrix]

Pfft. That’s nothing. I had a pellicle that looked like a yellow, tentacled space alien on my beer a few years back. As someone who gets put off by ooky things (I can’t eat boiled eggs or jello), it was almost too much. However, I’m also cheap, so I wanted to drink that beer. On the advice of experienced brewers, I left behind 10% of the liquid so as not to disturb the pellicle, and bottled the rest. The beer was pretty good. (Although I could never extract full enjoyment from it, as I couldn’t stop picturing the beast it gave birth to.)

There was a thread on reddit a few weeks back, where a brewer discussed his wonderful beer that discharged unusual particles towards the end of the keg. Upon cleaning, he discovered a cockroach on the bottom in two pieces. Someone commented he’ll spend the rest of his life wondering if that cockroach was the key to making that beer great.

 

[DVCNick]

Thanks all.
This morning after it had time to settle down the same kind of bubbles were starting to become visible again. I can't really see a white haze that I normally associate with a pellicile, however, clearly something is making up the body of the bubbles.

I really believe it is still fermenting. The pressure is rising when it is closed, for sure. It had been entirely stable before adding the hops (noted on the hops alone possibly restarting fermentation).

Above it was mentioned to "treat it normally" if it tastes good... does that mean keg it now, or wait for whatever is going on now to complete?

I did actually intend to bottle some of this later for my first competition.... I guess that is out. Of course I wouldn't bottle in it's current condition. So if I'm going to try to save it in terms of being drinkable, is it better to keg now, or let this additional fermentation finish out?

Also, I don't know if it is my imagination or not, but I think I see a few of the same damn kind of bubbles in a wheat beer that was brewed last weekend. The initial krausen is still up on that one, so it is harder to tell, but I've done that recipe several times, there are no dry hops, and I know exactly what it is supposed to look like. So if krausen drops on this one and I still have these weird bubbles in that batch, to me that will be the final lynch pin.

If I had to guess at a source right now... ball valve on my kettle. I've never cleaned it and always wondered if it could be an issue. I know it gets hot during the boil, but by the time I'm draining wort through it, the wort is only ~110 degrees or sometimes less...

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'd say keg now.

 

[DVCNick]

Ok, so it is now chilled and will be kegged this evening.
Most of the hop material and bubbles were dropped off the surface as of this morning. The center looks perfectly clear and normal. There is a half inch ring around the edge that seems to have some extra, white chunky type material. Very fine looking "chunks". I can't say I really see a haze at this point. And there are a couple spots even around the edge with no hop material and definitely look totally clear.

I've got about 6 gallons of volume so I'm going to have to bottle some to bottle condition anyway. I'll store them in the bathtub and keep a close eye on them for signs of pellicile.

 

[DVCNick]

Ok just an update for anyone how cares.... the conditioning bottles to this point look like the fermenter... clear in the middle, but a ring of what looks like particulate of some kind around the edge, that I've never seen in any of my other bottle conditioned beers. Moving the bottle at all causes it to start to break up and sink. I'm chilling one and will pop it tonight to make sure they aren't about to explode.

Took a sample off the keg, and the carb isn't quite there yet, but the taste seems a little off to me. I've made this before and it was better.

Not going to submit it for competition. The good news, the wheat beer batch done after this one looks done and no evidence of anything looking weird on the surface, so I'm hoping the issue was that I didn't clean the fermentasaurus well enough after the first batch in it. Will tear it all the way down to clean and sanitize before using it again.

 

[Dgallo]

Ok just an update for anyone how cares.... the conditioning bottles to this point look like the fermenter... clear in the middle, but a ring of what looks like particulate of some kind around the edge, that I've never seen in any of my other bottle conditioned beers. Moving the bottle at all causes it to start to break up and sink. I'm chilling one and will pop it tonight to make sure they aren't about to explode.

Took a sample off the keg, and the carb isn't quite there yet, but the taste seems a little off to me. I've made this before and it was better.

Not going to submit it for competition. The good news, the wheat beer batch done after this one looks done and no evidence of anything looking weird on the surface, so I'm hoping the issue was that I didn't clean the fermentasaurus well enough after the first batch in it. Will tear it all the way down to clean and sanitize before using it again.

No offense to you but I would have never put that beer into my kegs. If it is a bug, you just potentially infected your system. To be better save then sorry you should break the keg down completely replace, clean out all poppets, and replace all draft lines and ball lock connectors

 

[DVCNick]

No offense to you but I would have never put that beer into my kegs. If it is a bug, you just potentially infected your system. To be better save then sorry you should break the keg down completely replace, clean out all poppets, and replace all draft lines and ball lock connectors

I considered that and will definitely break the keg all the way down and soak every component.

The draft line, I normally dont leave anything in it very long..

 

[Dgallo]

]

I considered that and will definitely break the keg all the way down and soak every component.

The draft line, I normally dont leave anything in it very long..

That’s a good call for the keg, Doesn’t beer sit in the line in between pours? That’s plenty of time for bacteria to take hold. It’s the most rapidly reproductive organisn on our planet. Any microscopic cracks or defects will trap bacterial and wild yeast. It’s very good practice to replace the lines if you suspect infection.

 

[DVCNick]

Ok, I can do that... wouldn't be a big deal. Better safe than sorry if it might be an issue.
I thought the cold of the kegerator would stop anything from further developing though?

 

[Dgallo]

Ok, I can do that... wouldn't be a big deal. Better safe than sorry if it might be an issue.
I thought the cold of the kegerator would stop anything from further developing though?

Cold temps just slows it down. Food and beverages still spoil in your refrigerator(think milk going bad) due to bacteria

 

[RPh_Guy]

People who keg lambics and other intentionally soured/wild beers typically don't have issues with cross contamination, so what @Dgallo is suggesting, while ultimately the safest practice, probably isn't necessary.

I would just clean the serving lines on a regular basis. Contaminations of the lines may occur whether or not any particular batch was contaminated.

You're both correct the cold temperature drastically slows down any potential flavor compounds from wild microbes, likely to the point that even if the lines do get contaminated that any wild flavor won't be noticable. Anything is possible, so YMMV.

 

[DVCNick]

Every keg or two I run PBW through the line and let it sit for a while, then flush it with clean water... haven't noticed any issues yet. I haven't yet had the kegerator a year though.

 

[Positronic_Matrix]

No offense to you but I would have never put that beer into my kegs. If it is a bug, you just potentially infected your system. To be better save then sorry you should break the keg down completely replace, clean out all poppets, and replace all draft lines and ball lock connectors

I believe the cure for an infected system is a quick flush with OneStep (or comparable cleaner), which I do after every time I change a keg out. I place OneStep into a clean keg, attached the carbon dioxide line, and flush the liquid through the system. This should be sufficient, yes?