What temperature for a lager yeast starter?

[kombat]

I know lagers ferment at a lower temperature, and consequently have a higher yeast cell count requirement, necessitating a starter. But should the starter be done at lagering temperatures, too? Or can I do a lager yeast starter at room temperature, and then drop it to a lagering temperature matching the chilled wort before pitching?

And a secondary question: I'm making BierMuncher's "Cream of Three Crops" Cream Ale, but I'm making it with lager yeast. Since I'm making an ale, I'll be fermenting it at ale temperatures, but it's still a lager yeast, so should the starter be done at lager temperatures, then warmed up to ale temperatures (again, matching the wort) before pitching?

It's a little moot, because I've already "cooked" the (Wyeast California Lager) yeast starter last night, so it's been going for 12 hours now at room temperatures - I just want to know if I've ruined it, or if it'll be fine. Also, I'm doing a Pilsner Lager next month, so I'd like to know if the procedure is different between starting a lager yeast for an ale, and starting a lager yeast for a lager.

Thanks!

 

[A4J]

What's room temperature in your neck of the woods?

Typically, lager starters should be done at lager temps, but the California Lager can stand to be a little on the warmer side but not too warm. California Lager is perfect for BierMuncher's C3C. If it's only been 12 hours, try lowering the temp slowly down to the low 60's.

 

[MalFet]

I know lagers ferment at a lower temperature, and consequently have a higher yeast cell count requirement, necessitating a starter. But should the starter be done at lagering temperatures, too? Or can I do a lager yeast starter at room temperature, and then drop it to a lagering temperature matching the chilled wort before pitching?

I always do my lagers at room temperature, then cold crash and decant them.

And a secondary question: I'm making BierMuncher's "Cream of Three Crops" Cream Ale, but I'm making it with lager yeast. Since I'm making an ale, I'll be fermenting it at ale temperatures, but it's still a lager yeast, so should the starter be done at lager temperatures, then warmed up to ale temperatures (again, matching the wort) before pitching?

You should pick your fermentation temperatures based on your yeast, not your grainbill. If you're making a lager version of an ale recipe, you want to ferment at lager temperatures. As was mentioned, California lager is actually something of a hybrid yeast, so you have a bit more flexibility.

 

[StoneHands]

Room temp is fine for a lager starter, but you'll need to decant the starter beer. Crash the starter in the fridge for a few days (lager starters take longer to crash than ale starters), decant the spent wort, and pitch the slurry in your already at temp wort. I try not to go more than a 15 degree swing or so between the starter temp and the wort temp, so for a true lager, straight out of the fridge works fine (assuming 35-40 degrees for the fridge temp, I cool my wort to below 50 before pitching). For your Cali Lager, you may have to let the starter warm up a few degrees before pitching.
Decant the spent wort and room temp is fine for your starter since you won't adding much volume that may contain weird flavors.

 

[kombat]

Thanks for the input, guys. I started the (1.5 qt) starter last night, and I'm planning on brewing the beer tomorrow night. That would be a 48 hour starter, and I was planning on moving it into the fridge tomorrow morning to cold-crash for the last 12 hours. Is that too short of a cycle?

Room temperature in our home is around 66 F during the day (while we're at work) and 73F in the evenings (wife likes the house warmer).

If I ferment this batch at lager temperatures, can I still hope to have it ready in 5 weeks? It's for my sister-in-law's birthday party. Also, if I fermented it at lager temperatures, I'd need to double-up on my yeast cell count, wouldn't I? I did the starter to produce around 150 billion cells (for a 1.044 O.G. 5-gallon batch). But for lagers, you're supposed to double the count, aren't you? That would mean instead of brewing tomorrow night, I'd instead have to "step-up" my starter and try to double my cell count.

What are the ramifications if I just ferment this thing at "cool ale" temperatures? Say, 60-65 F?

 

[MalFet]

Thanks for the input, guys. I started the starter last night, and I'm planning on brewing the beer tomorrow night. That would be a 48 hour starter, and I was planning on moving it into the fridge tomorrow morning to cold-crash for the last 12 hours. Is that too short of a cycle?

Yes, definitely. I wouldn't cold crash if I couldn't keep it there for at least 36 hours, as this would strongly select for early flocc'ers. Then again, I wouldn't pitch a bunch of spent wort from a room temperature lager starter, either, so that's a tough choice.

If I ferment this batch at lager temperatures, can I still hope to have it ready in 5 weeks? It's for my sister-in-law's birthday party. Also, if I fermented it at lager temperatures, I'd need to double-up on my yeast cell count, wouldn't I? I did the starter to produce around 150 billion cells (for a 1.044 O.G. 5-gallon batch). But for lagers, you're supposed to double the count, aren't you? That would mean instead of brewing tomorrow night, I'd instead have to "step-up" my starter and try to double my cell count.

What are the ramifications if I just ferment this thing at "cool ale" temperatures? Say, 60-65 F?

You could ferment it as an ale without much difficulty. That's what a Cal Common is, ultimately. Some people hate Anchor Steam, some love it. The fermentation profile is distinctive.

 

[kombat]

Hmm. OK, what if I brew tomorrow night, but wait until Sunday to pitch the yeast? I could move the starter into the fridge Saturday morning, then by Sunday night it would have had 36 hours to cold-crash. If I brew the wort Friday night and affix an airlock, what's the risk of it getting infected before I pitch the yeast Sunday night? That'd be 48 hours before the yeast is introduced into the wort. Is that dangerously long, or would it be fine provided it's sealed up and I'm careful with my sanitizing?

 

[MalFet]

Hmm. OK, what if I brew tomorrow night, but wait until Sunday to pitch the yeast? I could move the starter into the fridge Saturday morning, then by Sunday night it would have had 36 hours to cold-crash. If I brew the wort Friday night and affix an airlock, what's the risk of it getting infected before I pitch the yeast Sunday night? That'd be 48 hours before the yeast is introduced into the wort. Is that dangerously long, or would it be fine provided it's sealed up and I'm careful with my sanitizing?

48 hours is a long time to sit without special precautions of the sort done by no-chill brewers. No way to buy another vial?

 

[kombat]

48 hours is a long time to sit without special precautions of the sort done by no-chill brewers. No way to buy another vial?

It was a Wyeast Smack-pack. I may be able to find them at my LHBS, I'm not sure how much variety they carry (this one was mail-ordered).

Would pitching the entire starter - wort and all - produce noticeable off-flavors in the resulting beer? I'm guessing that since I've "started" a lager yeast at room temperatures, the wort is probably less than desireable, right?

Argh. I guess I could rearrange my schedule and brew on Sunday instead. But it's supposed to be sunny and 68 F tomorrow, and rainy and 50 F on Sunday. Tomorrow will be ideal for brewing, Sunday will be ... less so. But if it means better beer, I guess I might have to bite the bullet.

So, if I leave the starter at room temperature until Saturday morning, it will have had 60 hours to get a foothold. Then Saturday morning, I'll move it into the fridge and cold crash for another 36 hours. Then Sunday evening, I'll warm the yeast starter back up to 65-ish, brew the Cream of Three Crops wort, decant the wort from the yeast starter, and pitch the starter yeast slurry. Then move the fermenter into my fermentation chamber and ferment for a couple of weeks at 60 F.

Any flaws in my plan?

 

[MalFet]

Why not put the starter in the fridge earlier? To be honest, I'd rather have more crash time than more ferment time. A starter is almost always done at 48 hours, often by 24 even. Even if you do crash it a bit early, that won't hurt anything really.

You'd probably be fine to just dump the whole thing in, but cream ales are relatively delicate. I'd avoid it if I could but wouldn't fret about it if I couldn't.

 

[kombat]

OK, so what if I moved it into the fridge tomorrow night, and brewed Sunday night? That'd be 48 hours to ferment, and 48 hours to cold-crash. I'd rather get this right than cut corners to fit my schedule and end up with a sub-optimal beer. The "client" (my sister in law) doesn't usually like beer, but there's one brand she likes (McAuslin's Maple Cream Ale), so I'd like to make this beer as tame and friendly as possible. It's my first time working with a lager yeast, so I want to make sure the beer doesn't have any strong, unwelcome flavors.

Better to do it right, than to do it twice!

 

[MalFet]

OK, so what if I moved it into the fridge tomorrow night, and brewed Sunday night? That'd be 48 hours to ferment, and 48 hours to cold-crash. I'd rather get this right than cut corners to fit my schedule and end up with a sub-optimal beer. The "client" (my sister in law) doesn't usually like beer, but there's one brand she likes (McAuslin's Maple Cream Ale), so I'd like to make this beer as tame and friendly as possible. It's my first time working with a lager yeast, so I want to make sure the beer doesn't have any strong, unwelcome flavors.

Better to do it right, than to do it twice!

48h ferment and 48h crash is my standard schedule for starters, and I've never has a problem. Looks good!