What should I need and what should I want

[Cerevisaphile]

I think long distance bottling is a great idea!

 

[Lozootmaniac]

I got a bucket at lowes today with a lid, 5$. Grabbed a paint strainer bag as well, 2$.

I have a 20 qt stock pot, 30 ft of 3/8 copper tubing, that 5 gal bucket, a grain bag, an empty 20 cu. ft. CO2 tank, and no more money for my project.

Ingredient wise I got nothing unless 6 lbs of steel cut oats matter much. .or some adjuncts such as rosemary and thyme.

 

[n240sxguy]

 

[ericbw]

alcohol in certain percentages can melt or dissolve a plastic. That and the plastic my be brittle enough to get cracks that's you can only see in certain light, leaving behind odors or living bacteria. Boil then sanitize? Or sanitize then boil? That's my question.

One of mine got tiny cracks after about 4 batches. When I was cleaning, I noticed a little gooey drop near the bottom and looked closer. There were a couple of cracks. Not enough to really leak, but I threw it out. They are very cheap. A more expensive better bottle might last longer. I will closely check the others before the next use.

I like the 3 gal size.

 

[MotorcycleMatt]

im just curious if the op is even of legal age to drink this concoction he has made, it sounds like some foul stuff to me.

 

[Lozootmaniac]

Ok I recently was reading about bucket brewing and some have suggested using a 6.5 gallon bucket to ferment 5 gallons of beer. Could I get away with fermenting 3 gallons in a 5 gallon bucket? Or is that too much airspace above the beer while its fermenting?

Does anyone recommend that I get 1.6 gallon carboys/better bottle and split the batches in half after I boil it, and just use the bucket for something else. My stock pot is only 5 gallons and a quart to the top so I'm limited by that.

I also wanted to make An unhopped version of each beer I want to make with hops, has anyone ever split a wort before hopping and left the other to be flavored/preserved with other ingredients? Or should I make a separate wort for every un hopped recipe I make. I'm interested in not using hops at least once.

 

[unionrdr]

A 5 gallon bucket would be better. It'd have less head space than a 6.5 gallon one.

 

[Lozootmaniac]

is the headspace only a concern with oxygen being inside and extra aeration?

 

[unionrdr]

The co2 off gassing from fermentation would onl have a 2 gallon space to fill up with a 3 gallon beer. You need to aerate the wort for the yeasts' reproductive phase.

 

[Lozootmaniac]

I know you aerate for the yeast, I'm asking what the problem with extra space is in the fermenter.

 

[unionrdr]

What I've been getting at is having too much head space can give infection a chance to set in before the yeast can take over & produce enough co2 to fill the head space.

 

[DrunkleJon]

You want extra space in the fermenter to contain the krausen that occurs during peak fermentation. You should not need to worry too much about having too much headspace, Some brewers brew without a lid and that is as much headspace as you can get.

 

[n240sxguy]

I concur. Don't worry about headspace too much. Just make sure it is sealed.

 

[unionrdr]

try doing 3 gallons in a 6.5 gallon bucket & tell me you're not worried about head space. Fermentation in those instances don't make enough co2 to protect the beer very quickly.

 

[iowabrew]

try doing 3 gallons in a 6.5 gallon bucket & tell me you're not worried about head space. Fermentation in those instances don't make enough co2 to protect the beer very quickly.

I brew 3 gallons in 6.5 gallon buckets every time i brew. No infection yet. How is the head space a concern in a sealed vessel? How does 3 gallons not ferment quickly enough to create CO2 off gas, but 5 gallons does???

Whether its 3 gallons or 5 gallons, they should theoretically produce CO2 at the same rate, providing off gas which in return will protect the beer underneath that layer of C02.

 

[ACbrewer]

as and FYI on headspace, the approximate volume of CO2 produced is 60 gallons(air volume) per gallon of wort at a typical (1.040) gravity. So 3 gallons would produce 180 gallons of atmospheric CO2. So in a 5 gallon bucket, the 2 gallons of head space is negligable. If it is wort. If the contents are racked beer, then a CO2 purge would be needed.

 

[evrose]

try doing 3 gallons in a 6.5 gallon bucket & tell me you're not worried about head space. Fermentation in those instances don't make enough co2 to protect the beer very quickly.

I've done 2.5 gallon batches in a 6.5 gallon bucket and never once had an issue with oxidation or infection. The fermentation produces plenty of CO2... and with good sanitation, there's no concern.

 

[unionrdr]

I brew 3 gallons in 6.5 gallon buckets every time i brew. No infection yet. How is the head space a concern in a sealed vessel? How does 3 gallons not ferment quickly enough to create CO2 off gas, but 5 gallons does???

Whether its 3 gallons or 5 gallons, they should theoretically produce CO2 at the same rate, providing off gas which in return will protect the beer underneath that layer of C02.

While you might be producing co2 at the same rate,you won't be producing as much,due to the lower volume. Also,the co2 absorbes the o2,not mearly chasing it out the airlock. So the air in the head space must be absorbed by the co2 to protect the beer. Nasties generally need air to propogate. The sooner o2 is absorbed by the co2,the better.

 

[Lozootmaniac]

I will have co2 on hand for purging and maybe for bottles by the time I make beer. It's heavier than air so it should be a layer over the yeast as soon as fermentation starts. Or I could purge the fermenter before I add the wort. Would I have to aerate for the yeast if I have a decent starter already whirlpooled?

 

[unionrdr]

That's the phalicy of common thinking. The gasses don't layer,they mix till the heavier gas absorbes the lighter one.

 

[iowabrew]

I will have co2 on hand for purging and maybe for bottles by the time I make beer. It's heavier than air so it should be a layer over the yeast as soon as fermentation starts. Or I could purge the fermenter before I add the wort. Would I have to aerate for the yeast if I have a decent starter already whirlpooled?

You should definately aerate. Remember oxygen is a good thing at the start of fermentation, so purging with CO2 into a primary fermeneter is kind of opposite of what you want IMO. You really can't oxidize a beer before it has fermented

 

[Lozootmaniac]

So I should aerate the liquid, then if I want to purge I can purge the airspace and install my airlock, cause the air space doesn't help the yeast at all, only aeration does?

 

[iowabrew]

So I should aerate the liquid, then if I want to purge I can purge the airspace and install my airlock, cause the air space doesn't help the yeast at all, only aeration does?

In my thought process, yes, this is perfectly fine.

Aerate wort, purge with CO2, put on lid.

 

[evrose]

While you might be producing co2 at the same rate,you won't be producing as much,due to the lower volume. Also,the co2 absorbes the o2,not mearly chasing it out the airlock. So the air in the head space must be absorbed by the co2 to protect the beer. Nasties generally need air to propogate. The sooner o2 is absorbed by the co2,the better.

Um... with all due respect, what on Earth are you talking about?

CO2 absorbs O2? Huh?

I must have slept through quite a few chemistry classes, because in all my years of science education, that's the first time I've ever heard that phrase... something is being lost in translation here...

 

[evrose]

That's the phalicy of common thinking. The gasses don't layer,they mix till the heavier gas absorbes the lighter one.

Edit: because I don't have time to get in to a debate on the movement dynamics of a contained mixed gas system.

 

[unionrdr]

Nope. one of your bretheren on here that does research or something gave a long explaination on that one some time ago. Makes sense,as so many things in nature mix somehow rather than just layering. Our atmosphere is a perfect example. so if you've never heard of it,you weren't paying close attention. I got "A"'s in the living sciences. but they know even more nitty gritty details nowadays. So I remember some of this stuff.

 

[evrose]

Nope. one of your bretheren on here that does research or something gave a long explaination on that one some time ago. Makes sense,as so many things in nature mix somehow rather than just layering. Our atmosphere is a perfect example. so if you've never heard of it,you weren't paying close attention. I got "A"'s in the living sciences. but they know even more mitty gritty details nowadays. So I remember some of this stuff.

Regardless of the settling issue... I still have no idea what you mean by heavier gasses absorbing lighter ones... do you mean that they simply mix?

 

[unionrdr]

I forget what the rate of absorption is,but yeah. As the co2 is produced & off-gassed,it absorbes the o2 trapped in the head space. When the gass reaches the right pressure,you see bubbles in the airlock.

 

[ACbrewer]

What I've been getting at is having too much head space can give infection a chance to set in before the yeast can take over & produce enough co2 to fill the head space.

If proper sanatation is used, why would this matter with 1 gallon or 5 gallons of head space? I mean if you've reduced the bacteria count to 1000, and are putting in 100 million (or billions) or yeast, how is the bacteria going to 'infect' it? And I admit that we reduce (sanatize) not eliminate (sterlize) our surfaces

While you might be producing co2 at the same rate,you won't be producing as much,due to the lower volume. Also,the co2 absorbes the o2,not mearly chasing it out the airlock. So the air in the head space must be absorbed by the co2 to protect the beer. Nasties generally need air to propogate. The sooner o2 is absorbed by the co2,the better.

And here we are probably talking past one another.

1. yeah as the CO2 is produced it will mix with the Air (N2/O2 mix) in the head space, as a whole over the ferment - usually at 90% at 2 days it will become the dominate, although not sole gas in the head space. For a period, there will be O2 in the headspace.

2. But there is also O2 in a properly aerated beer, typically a good shake/whip/stir will get about 4 to 5 PPM (Yeast by White) Ideally a target of 8 to 12 PPM is optimal (Yeast by White and How to Brew by Palmer)

3. And now some math. A quick interent search shows that at STP (32F) air needs 22.4l for 1 mole* of gases At 70F, it is 24l for 1 mole - ie more space needed.
Water has 55 moles per liter - I know wort is more than water, but for sake of simplicity....
Let me normalize that. 55.5 moles/L water and .042 moles/L for air. ~20% is O2, so only .0083 moles/L
Right, but we work in gallons and need to convert that. so in a 5 gallon batch of beer, 19*55.5=1054.5 moles/batch with 1.5g headspace, 1.5*3.7*.0083=.046 moles/headspace.

so 1054.5 vers .046 let's get this back to ppm. if we mulitiply each by 1000, we have 1,054,500 moles of liquid and 46 moles of O2.
This means we have about 46 ppm (above we wanted 8ppm to 12 ppm disolved). Not all of this can or will go into solution but thermo was never a strong point, and I don't think that this was a thermo or P Chem problem I've seen. I'd guess that atleast 1/2 and probably more than 1/2 of the air (N2 O2 mix) is displaced by the generation of CO2. There is mixing, but it all has to out gas somehow.

If we rescale this for our 5 gallon bucket, 3 gallons of beer and 2 gallons of headspace, the numbers looks something like this 632,400 v 61 moles - or about 96 ppm of the O2 in the head space of all the molecules in the bucket.

The 'magic CO2 blanket' in fermenting isn't magic, or a blanket, but nor is it so pourous that all the O2 in an early ferment is going to wreck wort or must.

I'd be currious to see if there are any studies of the transmission on a surface of a liquid of atmospheric gases into solution.

* what is a mole? A mole in chemistry is defined as enough molecules for a given molecule to have it's molecular weight expressed in grams, specifically this is normalized to a mole carbon 12 being 12 grams. But it is a way of counting the molecules in a given mass.

 

[unionrdr]

We also have to remember that o2 is driven out of wort during the boil. This of course is why we have to aerate it. so it re-absorbes some o2 from our actions. but I don't think it absorbes what it had before boiling. Unless you use an o2 cylinder & a SS airstone.
I tend to think the o2 from aerrating stays absorbed,due to replacing some of what was driven off. Although the rapid off gassing of co2 during initial fermentation likely effects this. but now we'd be talking about how fast the yeast cells absorb this o2 vs how fast it can be partially driven off by off gassing co2 during the reproductive phase,going into intial fermentation.
It also depends on other factors in one's process as to how fast all this happens. So it is conceveable that since we're sanitizing,& not sterilizing,that something could use the air to it's own dubious advantage. it does come up on here now & then. It would be interesting to see how fast surface transmmission works.
And then of course,we have oenning the fermenter for SG readings,etc. This I think starts the process over again,but to a smaller extent. Depending of course on how much one openns the fermenter as it gets closer to FG. This is how **** happens...