What no one wants to say

[MaxStout]

What the industry needs is for Taylor Swift to be seen chugging beer at a craft brewery and to say, "Life's too short to waste on shiatty beer."

Millions of Swifties will be beating a path to their nearest brewpub.

 

[An Ankoù]

I've got 3 breweries/brew-pubs within a half-hour drive, that make pretty darned good beer, and have great food, or at least decent snacks. But it's only a rare treat that I patronize any of them, because:

• I'm old, and mostly retired. I'd LOVE to have a beer or three and a nice lunch at your brewery/brew-pub. BUT YOU NEVER OPEN BEFORE 3pm except on weekends.
• $8.00/pint (and that pint glass has maybe 13 ounces of actual beer) is too expensive (for small-town Minnesota).
• That tip screen, with the lowest gratuity defaulting to 20% really grates on me. Especially when the server knows nothing about the beer!

/ puts onion back on belt and
// ends grumpy-old-man-rant

It's time I got to the bottom of this because I just don't get it:
The barman gives you a short measure- 13oz instead of 16oz- and then you tip him 20%!!!!

Aren't measures regulated? If you order a pint, aren't you guaranteed a pint? Are the prices published in dollars per pint or just a non-specified "glass"? When you fill up your tank with petrol (gasoline?) do you pay per gallon or does the guy pull a figure out of the air?

Why do you tip if you don't want to?
What is a "tip screen"?
Just pay for your beer and tell the server to faff-off. What would happen if you didn't tip? Would they call the cops?
I've never tipped in a bar, ever, and I've never been asked to.
Sure, if the bar's quiet and I'm having a friendly chat with the landlord or barman I'll offer him a drink, but never a tip. I don't think we even have a facility for offering tips in a pub.

What's it all about?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

20% !? [minimum suggested tip]

I'll tip for pours, but not for products. Perhaps $1 per glass makes the math and data entry easy.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What's it all about?

It very quickly becomes a political topic (involving topics like, but not limited to, health insurance) and in the USA, the discussion will vary (by state or region, by urban or rural population, ... ).

Please, "let's not go there" in this topic or any of the other non-subscriber forums.

 

[mac_1103]

I'll tip for pours, but not for products. Perhaps $1 per glass makes the math and data entry easy.

Right. Most of the places I go it's not $X/pint anyway. Beers are priced differently and available in two or three different size pours. Did the server have to do more work to bring you the 10 oz Imperial Stout or the 20 oz Pale Ale? Or was it actually pretty much the same?

I almost never use a default tip option anyway, even if they start lower than 20%. I have to check the math anyway to be sure they aren't making me tip on the tax on top of everything else, and at that point it's easier to just calculate what I actually want to give them.

 

[An Ankoù]

It very quickly becomes a political topic (involving topics like, but not limited to, health insurance) and in the USA, the discussion will vary (by state or region, by urban or rural population, ... ).

Please, "let's not go there" in this topic or any of the other non-subscriber forums.

Oh wow.
I didn't realise it was such a sensitive /contentious subject. I'm even more confused now. But I'll let it lie.

 

[MaxStout]

It's time I got to the bottom of this because I just don't get it:
The barman gives you a short measure- 13oz instead of 16oz- and then you tip him 20%!!!!

Aren't measures regulated? If you order a pint, aren't you guaranteed a pint? Are the prices published in dollars per pint or just a non-specified "glass"? When you fill up your tank with petrol (gasoline?) do you pay per gallon or does the guy pull a figure out of the air?

Why do you tip if you don't want to?
What is a "tip screen"?
Just pay for your beer and tell the server to faff-off. What would happen if you didn't tip? Would they call the cops?
I've never tipped in a bar, ever, and I've never been asked to.
Sure, if the bar's quiet and I'm having a friendly chat with the landlord or barman I'll offer him a drink, but never a tip. I don't think we even have a facility for offering tips in a pub.

What's it all about?

Tipping in the US is getting out of hand. It's always been customary for situations like table service (wait staff are paid less than minimum wage and rely on tips to make up the difference). More and more point of sale systems have the tip prompt built in and it usually lets you opt out or pay a custom amount.

Some bars and restaurants will include an automatic 20% "service charge" so they can pay the workers a better wage. In Minnesota where I live, the law requires the establishment to inform customers in advance, but that's not necessarily the case elsewhere. Look over your bill before paying. If the mandatory charge is there, a tip is not necessary.

If I have to stand in line to buy something, no tip. The person just handed me a cup of coffee or a sandwich. They just did their job for which they receive a wage. For bartender service, usually a dollar tip per drink is customary.

As for pint fills, there's generally no measurement law like in Europe. Here it's considered a "nominal" value. Different for gasoline--every state has weights and measures enforcement and gas pumps must be calibrated and certified. Same for scales at grocery stores--a pound of meat or produce had better be a pound.

It would be nice if we had a system like in some other countries, where tipping isn't a big thing and service workers were paid a decent wage. But tipping is ingrained in the culture in the US and Canada.

 

[mac_1103]

I didn't realise it was such a sensitive /contentious subject.

That's because you live in a civilized country.

 

[mac_1103]

tipping is ingrained in the culture in the US and Canada

It's been a while, but the last time I was in Quebec service was included. And wait staff would actually refuse extra tips.

 

[MaxStout]

It's been a while, but the last time I was in Quebec service was included. And wait staff would actually refuse extra tips.

On the way to Alaska 2 years ago we went through MB, SK, AB, BC, and YT. US-style tipping was in place everywhere we stopped.

Must be the French influence in Quebec.

 

[Pennine]

It's time I got to the bottom of this because I just don't get it:
The barman gives you a short measure- 13oz instead of 16oz- and then you tip him 20%!!!!

Aren't measures regulated? If you order a pint, aren't you guaranteed a pint? Are the prices published in dollars per pint or just a non-specified "glass"? When you fill up your tank with petrol (gasoline?) do you pay per gallon or does the guy pull a figure out of the air?

Why do you tip if you don't want to?
What is a "tip screen"?
Just pay for your beer and tell the server to faff-off. What would happen if you didn't tip? Would they call the cops?
I've never tipped in a bar, ever, and I've never been asked to.
Sure, if the bar's quiet and I'm having a friendly chat with the landlord or barman I'll offer him a drink, but never a tip. I don't think we even have a facility for offering tips in a pub.

What's it all about?

Restaurants and bars have always been a tip for service business in the states. In fact owners can legally pay the staff less money than they are required to for non tipped staff.

Now here is where tipping is getting out of ******* control over here. Want a cup of coffee, a sub from subway or a pizza from a food truck, they all expect you to tip now.

I bet you within a few months the self checkout kiosks are going to start asking you to tip them for the opportunity to be their servants. Such is life in the good ole USofA...

 

[An Ankoù]

Tipping in the US is getting out of hand. It's always been customary for situations like table service (wait staff are paid less than minimum wage and rely on tips to make up the difference). More and more point of sale systems have the tip prompt built in and it usually lets you opt out or pay a custom amount.

Some bars and restaurants will include an automatic 20% "service charge" so they can pay the workers a better wage. In Minnesota where I live, the law requires the establishment to inform customers in advance, but that's not necessarily the case elsewhere. Look over your bill before paying. If the mandatory charge is there, a tip is not necessary.

If I have to stand in line to buy something, no tip. The person just handed me a cup of coffee or a sandwich. They just did their job for which they receive a wage. For bartender service, usually a dollar tip per drink is customary.

As for pint fills, there's generally no measurement law like in Europe. Here it's considered a "nominal" value. Different for gasoline--every state has weights and measures enforcement and gas pumps must be calibrated and certified. Same for scales at grocery stores--a pound of meat or produce had better be a pound.

It would be nice if we had a system like in some other countries, where tipping isn't a big thing and service workers were paid a decent wage. But tipping is ingrained in the culture in the US and Canada.

Thanks for that. Most helpful.
I guess if most people objected, things would change, but they don't. I get a sense that people are becoming uneasy with having to positively opt out, which can be embarrassing.

Before I left the UK, restaurants and cafés were beginning to present tabs with "service charge of x% is included in the bill". You could ask for it to be removed. When I visited in June, the tabs simply said "service not included". That may have been coincidence, but it seems to mark a trend.
Traditionally a gratuity would be offered in a restaurant or to a taxi driver, but it was never asked for.
How things change.

 

[MaxStout]

Back OT: these expenses--higher costs, labor, tips and other charges, are all factors that may contribute to some people's decisions to not go out as much. That could be one more element impacting beer sales.

https://www.restaurantdive.com/news...ending-seven-percent-less-restaurants/745994/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

In the US there's a glut of malt that has nowhere to go, yet sacks of malt keep getting ever more expensive.

Probably transport costs keeping malt sack prices way up there.

A thought experiment on where the added costs are coming from:

1. Get the price for a 50# bag of Briess Brewers malt at Northern Brewer, MoreBeer, and RiteBrew. Then add the shipping cost. Then estimate the distance the bag had to travel to get to the 'store' and then to your location.
2. Compare MoreBeer's prices / free shipping rate to other regional suppliers that also offer free shipping (but at a higher threshold).

Do lower free shipping thresholds and higher shipping costs require higher product prices?

 

[MaxStout]

A thought experiment on where the added costs are coming from:

1. Get the price for a 50# bag of Briess Brewers malt at Northern Brewer, MoreBeer, and RiteBrew. Then add the shipping cost. Then estimate the distance the bag had to travel to get to the 'store' and then to your location.
2. Compare MoreBeer's prices / free shipping rate to other regional suppliers that also offer free shipping (but at a higher threshold).

Do lower free shipping thresholds and higher shipping costs require higher product prices?

I've done just that more than a few times. Open several browser tabs, go to those sites, put the goods in the shopping cart of each, add shipping to my location, check the total costs. It may vary for other people, based on distance, but the results might be surprising.

I think there's no such thing as "free shipping." They'll make up for it in other ways.

 

[mac_1103]

I guess if most people objected, things would change, but they don't.

If most people stopped tipping the tipped employees would object and things would change. But good luck with that.

 

[Jim R]

It would be interesting to know what percentage of the electronic tips from the iPads even go to the employees (vs to the owners). I have often asked the employees and they don't often know. I bet it is far less than 100%.

I suspect most employees would prefer a $1 or $2 cash tip with each round of beers although most of us don't carry much cash anymore.

 

[MaxStout]

It would be interesting to know what percentage of the electronic tips from the iPads even go to the employees (vs to the owners). I have often asked the employees and they don't often know. I bet it is far less than 100%.

I suspect most employees would prefer a $1 or $2 cash tip with each round of beers although most of us don't carry much cash anymore.

I think it's a truth-in-advertising thing. If they state that it's a "service charge," without any qualifiers, owners could keep some or all of it, douchey as that is. OTOH, if they claim it's to comp staff, it had better go to them. Our state AG's office has gone after a few places where owners pocketed that money. That was one of the factors that led our legislature to pass the "no hidden fees" statute a couple years ago.

 

[Bobby_M]

A thought experiment on where the added costs are coming from:

1. Get the price for a 50# bag of Briess Brewers malt at Northern Brewer, MoreBeer, and RiteBrew. Then add the shipping cost. Then estimate the distance the bag had to travel to get to the 'store' and then to your location.
2. Compare MoreBeer's prices / free shipping rate to other regional suppliers that also offer free shipping (but at a higher threshold).

Do lower free shipping thresholds and higher shipping costs require higher product prices?

I can't get a sack of Briess 2-row for less than $33 and that's a full pallet with a $10K order discount applied. Add $3.75 per sack for freight. It doesn't matter which of the four available distributors I use, it's all plus or minus a couple dollars. Even when I could buy Briess direct from them, it was only $1 cheaper landed.
Add costs: $6 Labor for receiving, picking and boxing. $2 transaction fee.

$33+3.75+6+2=$44.75 in DIRECT costs to get it into the UPS truck. I'm selling a sack for $52 and charging actual shipping cost.

Same reason that flaked rice from the Indian section of the grocery store is less than half the price of flaked rice at the LHBS, even though it is the exact same thing. The people who sell to the grocery store aren't aware people pay double at the LHBS

There's really some nuance here. Flaked rice is a commodity that also happens to be a specialty product within the brewing market. Since it's a relatively low volume item through the homebrew distributors, they have to make more money on it to incentivize even carrying it.

 

[mac_1103]

Around here the iPad just says "add tip" without specifying who it is that you're tipping. I think a lot of places distribute and report electronic tips based on assumptions rather than how much a given customer actually leaves. It does almost make me want to start carrying a wad of small bills around so I can tip individuals directly in cash, but even then how would I know that the servers are taking care of the kitchen staff?

 

[Pennine]

I can't get a sack of Briess 2-row for less than $33 and that's a full pallet with a $10K order discount applied. Add $3.75 per sack for freight. It doesn't matter which of the four available distributors I use, it's all plus or minus a couple dollars. Even when I could buy Briess direct from them, it was only $1 cheaper landed.
Add costs: $6 Labor for receiving, picking and boxing. $2 transaction fee.

$33+3.75+6+2=$44.75 in DIRECT costs to get it into the UPS truck. I'm selling a sack for $52 and charging actual shipping cost.


There's really some nuance here. Flaked rice is a commodity that also happens to be a specialty product within the brewing market. Since it's a relatively low volume item through the homebrew distributors, they have to make more money on it to incentivize even carrying it.

Thanks for sharing, I have always thought HBSs make minimal margin on sacks of malts. This proves it.

I am curious what BSG is charging for Euro malts I would imagine it's close to $50-$60 depending on quantity? It seems most of these sell for $30-$40 over in Europe/UK.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Grab the neon sign on the way out. You can get ~$200 for those on Craigslist

Stopped in for a pint while out running errands. On my way out, I had a pretty aggressive chuckle when I saw this and remembered your post. I probably looked like a psychopath.

I left it... probably couldn't get any more than 40 bucks on the open sign black market.

 

[MaxStout]

Around here the iPad just says "add tip" without specifying who it is that you're tipping. I think a lot of places distribute and report electronic tips based on assumptions rather than how much a given customer actually leaves. It does almost make me want to start carrying a wad of small bills around so I can tip individuals directly in cash, but even then how would I know that the servers are taking care of the kitchen staff?

I've started paying tips in cash, when I have it on me. I like to make sure the server really gets the $$ (no idea if they share with kitchen staff). Also, there are a few places we like to go to that are notorious for not clearing the tip charge with my bank for a couple weeks. Minor hassle, but I check my balance online quite frequently, and find some discrepancy and have to go looking to see what's not posted.

 

[Snuffy]

I used to spend probably 120 bucks a month in brew pubs and tap rooms. You could walk in and find a varied menu that usually included an IPA, a stout, a siason, a pale and maybe a porter or brown ale as the staples and then the rest was a seasonal mix of fruitedkolshsourblahblahblah. Prices ranged from 5 to 7 bucks a pint and the world was good. The clientele was business afters and 30 somethings and the bartender knew your name and you his or hers.

Over time, there was a shift and the fruitedkolshsourblah went to the front of the menu along with 3 IPAs and maybe a pale. The browns and porters and stouts and saisons became the seasonal end and it was 8 or 9 bucks a pint and smaller 8 or 10 oz pours of anything interesting or oaked. They brought in shuffle board and bocce ball and dog bowl stations and the clientele turned into 20 and 30 somethings with kids and dogs and man buns and half-shaved heads with lots of unfortunate tattoos and cringe-worthy face bangles. The bartenders were a revolving mix of alternative lifestylers who didn't know anything about beer besides what tap number it was on.

Needless to say, we eventually found ourselves back spending our money at the old standby pubs and accepted we had aged out of the tap room scene. If they fold and go away I will be sad but unaffected. If you jump on the bandwagon of a fad scene, then your fate is tied to the duration of that fad.

 

[Bobby_M]

Thanks for sharing, I have always thought HBSs make minimal margin on sacks of malts. This proves it.

I am curious what BSG is charging for Euro malts I would imagine it's close to $50-$60 depending on quantity? It seems most of these sell for $30-$40 over in Europe/UK.

Crisp Floor Malted Maris is around $53 pre-freight.

 

[madscientist451]

I used to spend probably 120 bucks a month in brew pubs and tap rooms. You could walk in and find a varied menu that usually included an IPA, a stout, a siason, a pale and maybe a porter or brown ale as the staples and then the rest was a seasonal mix of fruitedkolshsourblahblahblah. Prices ranged from 5 to 7 bucks a pint and the world was good. The clientele was business afters and 30 somethings and the bartender knew your name and you his or hers.

Needless to say, we eventually found ourselves back spending our money at the old standby pubs and accepted we had aged out of the tap room scene. If they fold and go away I will be sad but unaffected.

You have a “way with words”. Looking forward to more of your commentary.

 

[mashdar]

$33+3.75+6+2=$44.75 in DIRECT costs to get it into the UPS truck. I'm selling a sack for $52 and charging actual shipping cost.

I've personally found ordering 40 lbs from you is the sweet spot for me. I fill two 5 gallon buckets, it can be a mix of grains, and UPS shipping is only ~$23. It works out to about the same per lb price as a sack, but much easier to manage inventory.

 

[Halfakneecap]

There's really some nuance here. Flaked rice is a commodity that also happens to be a specialty product within the brewing market. Since it's a relatively low volume item through the homebrew distributors, they have to make more money on it to incentivize even carrying it.

I get that, and i don't mind supporting LHBS, but i'm not going to pay more than double for it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

$33+3.75+6+2=$44.75 in DIRECT costs to get it into the UPS truck. I'm selling a sack for $52 and charging actual shipping cost.

I've personally found ordering 40 lbs from you is the sweet spot for me. I fill two 5 gallon buckets, it can be a mix of grains, and UPS shipping is only ~$23. It works out to about the same per lb price as a sack, but much easier to manage inventory.

I see a similar sweet spot with the regional online store that I use (and the store does not use free shipping). That regional online store also works with two shippers (one national and one regional). Most of the time, the national shipper is more expensive by about 10% (shipping cost, not total order). The regional shipper has been in business for 20+ years and continuing to grow in the region.

 

[MaxStout]

I've personally found ordering 40 lbs from you is the sweet spot for me. I fill two 5 gallon buckets, it can be a mix of grains, and UPS shipping is only ~$23. It works out to about the same per lb price as a sack, but much easier to manage inventory.

There was a time when, if I wanted a sack of malt I'd order five 10lb bags from MoreBeer and get free shipping. I don't know if that's still a viable option, as I haven't ordered from them in quite a while.

Lately I've been rotating so many different styles in my brewing plans that I rarely want to buy a whole sack of any one base malt. Now I just plan ahead my next 3 or 4 brews and order what I need by the pound from Brew Hardware or Ritebrew.