What is the use of a nitrogen gas system?

[sr99awj]

I was looking at the nitrogen gas systems. What style of beers require nitrogen? If so, would using CO2 greatly alter the outcome of the beer? Just curious and wondering if it would be something to eventually get into. Thanks.

 

[riverfrontbrewer]

Traditionally, stouts...but anymore I have seen porters, barleywines, and even an IPA. Think the cascade effect of a well known Irish Stout....thats nitro.

Chris

 

[Yuri_Rage]

We were just discussing some of the principles this morning:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/beer-gas-set-up-140867/

 

[Pappers_]

My favorite soccer bar here in Chicago (The Globe Pub) serves Tetleys (a mild ale) on nitrogen.

 

[Orfy]

It gives a creamy head. Look for smooth pour, smooth flow beers.

 

[feedbag]

Boddington's Pub Ale is a pretty interesting nitrogen English pale ale. I have also had a nitro brown and IPA, pretty interesting stuff.

 

[dontman]

Actually any bar that has a separate beer room serves all of their beer with nitrogen. The reason is that it is impossible to balance a co2 only system when the lines are 50 ft or more from the beer room to the taps. In order to push beer 50 ft through lines would require psi of about 55. This would tremendously overcarb any beer overnight. The solution is to only give the beer one 1/4 the amount of co2 in the gas to absorb. This way the beer only absorbs 2 vols while still having enough serving pressure to get through the taps.

The difference between regular beers in this situation and stouts is that the beer is forced through a diffuser at the tap which breaks the co2 up into tiny bubbles. These tiny bubbles are what people often confuse for "nitrogenation" which is a myth. At Pub serving pressures almost zero nitrogen gets absorbed into solution and virtually none makes it all the way through the lines and tap into the glass. The nitrogen serves to fill the keg headspace and force the beer out the other side.

If you don't serve it through it a diffuser the foam comes out looking normal.

Some might argue that N2 does get absorbed into solution citing scuba divers as evidence but this is not entirely right. A little does get absorbed but the problem with narcosis is not it getting dissolved it is the fact that it comes out of solution instantly as you depressurize and your cells do not have a chance to dispense with it. In a beer serving situation the tiny amount of nitrogen that does get absorbed does have ample opportunity to come out of solution.

 

[Orfy]

Actually any bar that has a separate beer room serves all of their beer with nitrogen.

Not true.
All most all pubs in the UK use beer rooms (Cellars) there's no way they'd get away with serving everything under Nitrogen. A lot of pubs use pub/beer gas mix where appropriate but not exclusively.

 

[dontman]

Beer gas is serving beer using nitrogen since the beer gas is 75 % nitrogen.

This is not to say I disagree with you. I actually do not know much about how beer is served in pubs in the UK. Beer engines and pump taps are unusual over here so when there is a separate beer room here it is by far the usual case here that beer gas is used to dispense.

 

[Orfy]

Agreed but I'm saying it is not used exclusively. CO2 is still commonly used possibly more than beer gas.

The reason nitrogen started being used is to mimic the smooth (Non forced) creamy head you get from using a hand pump. Normally on stouts Guinness started in the 60s and some marketed smoothflow beers from about the mid 90's

 

[chuggs]

Some might argue that N2 does get absorbed into solution citing scuba divers as evidence but this is not entirely right. A little does get absorbed but the problem with narcosis is not it getting dissolved it is the fact that it comes out of solution instantly as you depressurize and your cells do not have a chance to dispense with it. In a beer serving situation the tiny amount of nitrogen that does get absorbed does have ample opportunity to come out of solution.

Your diving buddies need to get back into the books.

Narcosis has nothing to do with that. Nitrogen Narcosis is just Nitrogen in the blood at High Partial Pressures. It affects the brain...giving the diver a euphoric feeling. A feeling which has been compared to how alcohol effects the brain. As you ascend...reducing the partial pressure...the Narcosis goes away. I don't dive that deep on air...but my brother has. He says it's pretty darned freaky. Your coordination goes to hell. Your focus is shot...and you start getting really paranoid. He did not say that he got the munchies though.


You're talking about bends, chokes, disbaryism...and a bunch of other names to label evolved gas disorders. Any gas will come out of solution. It just so happens that by reducing the ambient pressure by 1/2 Air or Nitrogen will. So those divers that exceed 33 ft of sea water... 2 atmopheres of pressure...and return to the surface...risk disbaryism. Nitrogen is slow to pass through cell walls... unlike Oxygen or Carbon Dioxide...which means that it takes a while to disolve in your blood...but the deeper you go...the longer you stay...the more gets disolved. If you know your way around a decompression table...you'll know that if you slowly reduce your depth...and give the Nitrogen the required amount of time...it will come out through respiration...but it won't do it as quickly as the Oxygen or Carbon Dioxide will.. So it becomes a limiting factor. If you ascend quicker than the respiration of Nitrogen can occur...you'll get bubbles in your blood and tissues...and it can be fatal.

If you want to compare the solubility of gases in liquids ...

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gases-solubility-water-d_1148.html


As far as the rest of the stuff...yes...some pubs still serve Ales from Casks or Firkins and use a Beer Engine...and a sparkler knozzle. But in the USA...Bars and Restarants that want a "Long draw draught system" use either Mixed gas...or Pumps.

If you want to know more about mixed gas in bars...I recommend this article:

http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-beer-edu/dispensing-beer-blended-gases-aid-119.html

 

[sr99awj]

That is some amazing stuff guys, thanks!

 

[chuggs]

Agreed but I'm saying it is not used exclusively. CO2 is still commonly used possibly more than beer gas.

The reason nitrogen started being used is to mimic the smooth (Non forced) creamy head you get from using a hand pump. Normally on stouts Guinness started in the 60s and some marketed smoothflow beers from about the mid 90's

Orfy's got it!

The Pubs in England that I've been to...don't use Nitrogen blends except for dispensing Guinness, or a Cream Flow Ale such as Boddington's Pub Ale or Worthington Cream Flow, etc... Those are dispensed through what we all know as a Stout Faucet.

The "Real Ales"...are cask conditioned. These are pumped to the tap by a Beer Engine from a Cask, Firkin, Kilderkin or whatever. As the liquid is drawn from the cask...air enters. To extend the shelf life...some pubs use a valve that allows CO2 to enter instead of air...so the beer doesn't get oxidized. Nitrogen would be a waste of effort for this.

Lagers are still pumped to the tap with CO2...just like we do, except in situations where the kegs are very far from the bar. And we use Nitrogen-CO2 blends to prevent overcarbonation.

I really miss my pub adventures in London. Wow do they have some good stuff on tap.

 

[ChshreCat]

Curious... if you're too cheap to set up a whole beer gas system, or if you're feeding several kegs from one regulator, would it be possible to get a nitrogen bulb in one of the little handheld keg chargers and just add some nitrogen to one of your kegs every so often to mimic beergas?

 

[chuggs]

Curious... if you're too cheap to set up a whole beer gas system, or if you're feeding several kegs from one regulator, would it be possible to get a nitrogen bulb in one of the little handheld keg chargers and just add some nitrogen to one of your kegs every so often to mimic beergas?

One of the most important reasons to have the gas is to allow the Brewer to "balance" the system. In other words...have the gas regulator set at a point which 1) maintains the desired level of carbonation in the beer and 2) can force the beer through a "Stout Faucet" which is equiped with a restrictor plate.

If you're working on the cheap... Just carbonate your stouts like you do your other beers. I think the first thing to concentrate on is being able to get away from those dreadful bottles and move to a kegging system.

If you only have the one tank and regulator...that's not a problem that can't be overcome. It just requires a little more effort. You condition your beer...and then disconnect the tank. When you go to dispense...you can usually pour a few beers just as you are. But after dispensing quite a few...or you're done for the night. Reattach the gas to replenish the Carbon Dioxide so your beer maintains the desired level of fizziness. I used to use one gas fitting to push beer from 5 different kegs. Yeah...it's a nightmare sometimes...but it DOES work.

Next...keep your eye out for a Stout Faucet on eBay.

This seller has them from time to time at a really fantastic price:

http://shop.ebay.com/wally-gayle/m.html

Then...if you want to pour a creamy stout...just condition your kegged stout for a low co2 volume. Say around 5 psi at 38 degrees... When you're ready to serve...pump up the regulator pressure to 30 psi...and dispense through the stout faucet. You'll get a nice creamy head. The headache is...that you need to bleed that pressure back off to 5 psi to store your beer. If you leave it up at 30 for very long...the beer will overcarbonate...and the next time you pour through that stout faucet...you'll get so much foam you won't be able to get more than a swallow or two of stout from the glass. Most of the room will be pure foam.

Down the road you can add things as you go. A manifold perhaps so you can connect your CO2 to more than one keg at a time. And eventually a Beer Mix tank and regulator for your Stout.

You could try to use those little Nitrogen cartridges. If you condition your Stout with CO2 first...then just connect the cartridge when you go to dispense. The advantage being you can leave the extra Nitrogen pressure in the keg until the next time. You won't have to bleed it off like you would have to do with the CO2.

It's all good...as long as the drink you put in the keg is cared for. I compare some of these gadgets to lawnmowers ...you can use a push reel mower or a riding mower...they both do the same thing... one just requires more physical effort --- and the other more money.

 

[Orfy]

Beer gas is used at a higher at pressure than CO2 and it needs a different tap.

Better to use a cask and a breather but that's just me.

I cask condition some of my beer but I'm nut fussy about kegging and using CO2 for the majority.

I normally have 1 or 2 different beers a month at home but 20 - 40 different beers in the pubs so I don't go short on real ale.