What is the difference between a 60 minute boil and a 90 minute one?

[dmtaylor]

I notice with my software if I put a hop addition at 90 min or 60 min it calcluates the same bitterness for that addition. I don’t know if there’s a saturation point or whatever? I use BeerTools.

If measured in a lab, you can gain about 3 more IBUs from a longer boil... however humans cannot taste a difference of 3-4 IBUs so it doesn’t matter.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

30 minutes.... sorry I couldn’t resist.

Rats! Beat me to it!

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Normally my pale ale malts are 60 minute boils whereas my pils malts are 90 minute boils.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I notice with my software if I put a hop addition at 90 min or 60 min it calculates the same bitterness for that addition. I don’t know if there’s a saturation point or whatever?

Some 'relatively' recent preliminary data / measurements at

• Basic Brewing Radio (link)
• November 1, 2018 - IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps
• open the PDF,
• go to page 14.

Original Tinseth data can be found here (link) for those interested in graphing time & utilization.

eta: or see link in #37 below for graph of Tinseth data.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

It should be stated that all beers have some level of DMS. And in some beers (including commercial) it is an intentional part of the flavor profile. It's all I can think about when drinking Miller Lite (which I would never drink unless being polite to someone who hands one to me). Bud Light is far more clean tasting. If you prefer Miller Lite, you may be enjoying a bit of perceptible DMS. Mind you, this is merely my opinion.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

which I would never drink unless being polite to someone who hands one to me

This is when you secretly pour the swill into a nearby plant or in the grass. Just my opinion.

 

[Birrofilo]

I notice with my software if I put a hop addition at 90 min or 60 min it calcluates the same bitterness for that addition. I don’t know if there’s a saturation point or whatever? I use BeerTools.

There is a difference but it's a diminishing difference

A nice explanation is here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/impress-your-friends-analyzing-the-tinseth-formula.678566/

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Something is wrong with the formula. 90 minute boil should extract way more bitterness than 60 minute boil unless the volume is a concentrated boil.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

According to quite recent detailed research conducted by Professor Christopher S. Hamilton, Ph.D at Hillsdale College, in conjunction with his students, pellet hops essentially deliver all of the IBU's that they are ever going to deliver within only about 30 minutes, and they are at about 90% of achieving this end by 20 minutes. And they are about 70%-75% of the way there in only 5-10 minutes. And get this, they are ballpark 60% of the way home within as little as 1 minute. His research renders all current IBU calculators totally useless when dealing with pellet hops.

 

[Birrofilo]

According to detailed research conducted by Professor Christopher S. Hamilton, Ph.D at Hillsdale College, in conjunction with his students, pellet hops essentially deliver all of the IBU's that they are ever going to deliver within only about 30 minutes, and they are at about 90% of achieving this end by 20 minutes. And they are about 70% of the way there in only 10 minutes. In other words, that which requires 60-90 minutes for whole hops requires only 30 minutes for pellets. This renders all current IBU calculators totally useless when dealing with pellet hops.

If you could find the research and link it here, I would thank you.

I have a similar reasoning made by Strong to show here.
At pag 66 of his Brewing better beer, Strong gives a table of Hop Utilization with three columns:
TIME PELLETS WHOLE
60 28,6% 23,1%
30 21,9% 17,7%
20 17,4% 14,0%
15 14,1% 11.4%
10 10,4% 08,4%
05 05,7% 04,6%

That seem to confirm the result of the research by Hamilton. At 20' pellets give what cones give at 30', and at 30' pellets almost give what cones give at 60'.

I don't believe in calculators but in "tried and true" recipes

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The research was initially presented at the EBC Hop Symposium in Nuremberg, Germany, in September of 2018:

https://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/3/a/c/3a...12917278&hwt=1481fc9e35bd6eddb8354109153b85f4

 

[Birrofilo]

(deleted)

 

[Birrofilo]

Duh, we post a the same moment.
Thanks in any case!

I actually found it through a post of yours in another forum.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

According to quite recent detailed research conducted by Professor Christopher S. Hamilton, Ph.D at Hillsdale College

Is this the same data that is in BBR Nov 1 2018.?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Source?

See post #41 above.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Is this the same data that is in BBR Nov 1 2018.?

Sorry, but I have no idea. I believe that the linked Powerpoint presentation is merely a brief synopsis of his EBC symposium presentation.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

(deleted. maybe a new reply in a couple of hours).

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

And for everything found on the 'net there are things to contradict.

https://homebrewsupply.com/learn/60... addition, which will provide more bitterness.

https://homebrew.stackexchange.com/questions/15554/what-if-i-accidentally-boiled-for-90-minutes
Based on personal experience, no offence to the "Doctor", hey I've brewed so long I guess I'm a "Doctor too", hops longer boiled = more bitterness.

Since I am now a "Doctor", no, I will not ask you to turn your head and cough.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@Silver_Is_Money : I did a visual visual comparision of the PDFs mentioned in #34 and #41. They appear to be the same - so the BBR podcast that I mentioned may contain interesting information.

According to quite recent detailed research conducted by Professor Christopher S. Hamilton, Ph.D at Hillsdale College, in conjunction with his students, pellet hops essentially deliver all of the IBU's that they are ever going to deliver within only about 30 minutes, and they are at about 90% of achieving this end by 20 minutes. And they are about 70%-75% of the way there in only 5-10 minutes. And get this, they are ballpark 60% of the way home within as little as 1 minute.

Agreed - and this may be the "secret sauce" / "magic" that powers "15 minute pale ale", "BBR Hop Sampler", and "no boil" NEIPAs.

His research renders all current IBU calculators totally useless when dealing with pellet hops.

A while back, I loaded (and perhaps misused ) some of the data from Hamilton (pellet hops) and Tenseth (whole hops). It appears that at about 25 minutes and beyond (time left in the boil), the data is pretty much the same.

That being said, I have no interest in evaluating the numerous IBU calculators (and their numerous configuration options) to have an opinion as to how well they might estimate IBUs in the 0 to 30 minute range.

 

[dmtaylor]

I combined the Tinseth equation with empirical hop utilization ratios from the following link from Palmer to develop my own simplified equation for IBUs, shown at bottom of this post, including estimation of IBUs from so-called hop stand or whirlpool additions as a post-boil high temperature steep. This is only an estimate, good within about 10 IBUs (kind of like Tinseth). An estimation of IBUs is better than nothing IMO.

Palmer:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-1/hops/hop-bittering-calculations
Looking at Palmer's hop utilization ratios for a normal gravity beer of say 1.060, increasing boil time from 60 minutes to 90 minutes improves utilization from 21.1% to 22.6%. Wow, what a huge gain.

So here's my swaggy formula which you should find will get you really close vs. Tinseth, or as measured in a lab, within like I say about 10 IBUs, i.e., "close enough for most intents and purposes" (another one of my mottos). If you have multiple hop additions, you have to calculate them all separately then add it all together to get the total obviously.

IBU = oz * AA% * [sqrt(5*Boiltime)/V + sqrt(2*HStime)/V]

where:
Boiltime and HStime (Hop Stand a.k.a. Whirlpool time) need to be entered in minutes of course,
V is volume in gallons,
At high gravity (e.g., >1.080), change the sqrt 5 to a 4 instead, and sqrt 2 to 1.5,
At low gravity (e.g., 1.035-1.040), change the 5 to a 6, and the 2 to 2.5.

Maybe this will help somebody, and/or reduce the mystique with how IBUs are calculated. A little more messy basis stuff from yours truly is linked here, for anyone brave enough to attempt to understand it:

https://live.staticflickr.com/7891/45991029004_df99d89bc1_o.png

 

[togodoug]

They don’t brew with pils malt. The slightly darker malt they use, has little SMM.

Would there be an issue with a 20 minute hops stand using an extra light or light DME? If so can it be avoided with a cooler temperature ?

 

[Beer Viking]

I've been brewing on and off since the late 80's,and I've always boiled for 60 minutes, and I've never detected DMS in any of my beers.

Just wondering how often the beers you make are made mostly of pilsner malt?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Just wondering how often the beers you make are made mostly of pilsner malt?

I started with extract, then progressed to extract with crystal malt steeping, extract with partial mash steeping, and lastly I had fully transitioned to all-grain by 1994. My favorite brewing challenge over the years has been making good Bohemian Pilsner, and this quest began with my first all-grain beer. I did however go through an extended period of roughly 15 years of not brewing at all until returning to the hobby again in earnest after retiring in 2016. Thus my "on and off" statement... I'd have to say that over the years of my active all-grain brewing I've used more Pilsner base malt than any other type of base malt, and since returning to the hobby in 2016 I've settled upon using exclusively Pilsner malt as my base malt of choice in an effort to simplify things by purchasing base malt in 25 Kg. sacks. I generally abhor IPA's. I also like chasing the Eliot Ness and Vienna Lager styles. I've easily used more Pilsner malt as my all-grain base malt over the years than any other base malt. But I'm strictly an amateur brewer using meager equipment and mashing in a cooler with bag. When boiling I do attempt to maintain a moderate rolling boil in an open boil kettle. I boil ~7.5 gallons (~7.7 gallons at boil temp.) down to ~6.6 cooled gallons, for an average boil off of ~0.9 gallons.

 

[Birrofilo]

I think "Pilsner malt" in this context is too unprecise a definition.

I made my first all grain batch yesterday, the grist was composed of 6,5 kg of Pilsen malt, and my recipe instructed for the following mashing plan:

15' @ 55 °C
15' @ 59 °C
45' @ 63 °C
15' @ 70 °C
10' @ 78 °C

This is a typical mash plan for a Pilsner, and I bought the malt at the same shop which gave me the recipe, so I thought the malt and the recipe "matched".
But it wasn't so.

The malt is actually Malterie du Château CHÂTEAU PILSEN 2RP which has a Kolbach value of 35 - 45 and therefore is well-modified and can be mashed with the usual monostep schedule. The data sheet also says "ce malt est bien modifié et facilement empâté par infusion ou décoction. "
Technical data here: SPÉCIFICATION CHÂTEAU PILSEN 2RP 2019

Just as the mashing characteristics are not "Pilsen-like" while the name is, it may be that also the DMS characteristics are not what they might appear from the name, and that YPMMV.

 

[VikeMan]

15' @ 55 °C
15' @ 59 °C
45' @ 63 °C
15' @ 70 °C
10' @ 78 °C

This is a typical mash plan for a Pilsner, and I bought the malt at the same shop which gave me the recipe, so I thought the malt and the recipe "matched".
But it wasn't so.

That would have been a typical-ish mash schedule for a pilsner years ago, when pilsner malts tended to be under modified. It's very hard, if even possible, to find truly under modified pils malts today. In the US at least, you'd have to get them from a specialty "boutique" maltster. Some popular modern examples (of not under modified malts):

Weyermann Pils: 36-42.5
Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pils: 38-44
Dingeman's Pilsen MD: 35-45
Briess Pilsen: 37

Are you finding under modified pils malts in Italy?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The Swaen Pilsner malt I'm currently using specs a low p-DMS value of 5.0 max, and an SNR of 35-45.

 

[Beermeister32]

Here is an interesting calculator which calculates your boiling temperature at different elevations. My boil would be at about 209.4 degrees at 1420 ft. This is also a factor in DMS reduction as well as boil time:

https://www.thermoworks.com/bpcalc

 

[Birrofilo]

Are you finding under modified pils malts in Italy?

There probably are, because this recipe is dated 2019 and is prepared by Mostoitaliano (mostoitaliano.com) a professional brewer. I think they know how to interpret the Kolbach index and know the general mashing theory well.

The recipe is actually "branded" Polsinelli, a well-known shop for homebrewing and winemaking and other, and it is made "in collaboration with Mostoitaliano".

I was at Polsinelli shop when I was much greener than today, I was studying some recipes which were in the shop in form of leaflets. I got this recipe, Amnesia (Belgian tripel), and asked the clerck to give me the necessary, and he gave me a 25kg bag of that malt. I can't fault him, the recipe calls for "Pilsner malt" and the malt is a "Pilsner malt". The fault is in the recipe, which should specify a different mashing procedure if the malt is well-modified i.e. with a Kolbach index >= 35.

I do presume it is possible to find under-modified malts if not in the ordinary homebrewer's shops, at least in the professional trade. Or a brewer might have malt which is produced according to his own specifications.

 

[VikeMan]

There probably are, because this recipe is dated 2019 and is prepared by Mostoitaliano (mostoitaliano.com) a professional brewer. I think they know how to interpret the Kolbach index and know the general mashing theory well.

There are some brewers who still do protein rests even though they are not necessary and possibly detrimental, because they want to do a "traditional" process . Where does Mostoitaliano get their malt? Also, I would not assume that "professional brewer" equates to knowledge of protein modification. I would estimate that over half of the pros I know have heard the term, but don't really know what it means.

I do presume it is possible to find under-modified malts if not in the ordinary homebrewer's shops, at least in the professional trade. Or a brewer might have malt which is produced according to his own specifications.

I wouldn't presume that. Home brewers have been looking for under modified base malts for many years. If they were available in any sort of significant qtys, I presume they would have found them. It's what we do. If pros had them, we'd know. Let us know when you find something. If you do, I'm in for a sack.

 

[Elric]

Given that this topic started innocuously enough and is in the beginners forum, I wonder how many people got scared away with how complex this discussion has become