What gauge wire to wire up 240v controller and components.

[Justdrumin]

I just ordered everything I need for my EBIAB setup. My inspiration came from this thread and of course the awesome P-J's wiring diagram in the thread.

I have the controller components exactly as they are in PJ's diagram. I have ordered a 3 wire dryer cord and 6000watt 240v element with an element enclosure from brewhardware.com. The thread is for a 120v system, but from what I understand the controller is set up for 240v. I will be supplying the controller with 120v power supply because I don't have 240v access in my apartment, but I'd like to plan for buying a house in the future. Which will make my element 1500 watts and I'll be supplementing with a 1500 watt heatstick in order to boil 8 or so gallons. I have two separate 15 amp breakers available to do this.

Now for the wiring. I know 10 ga is used for 30 amps and 14 ga is for 15 amps. I know I could go smaller for some components as well. What's recommended for wiring the different components? I've tried looking at MANY builds without finding what I needed.

 

[atoughram]

More information is needed - what components are you talking about? The PID Power? 18AWG - more than plenty big enough for a 1amp fuse protecting it. The pump circuit is unprotected in the circuit, so we rely on the 20amp circuit breaker in your house, so you'll need 12AWG for that and the element. What kind of wire are you using inside the panel? MTW?

Dont wire the e-stop circuit. Tripping the GFCI as an e-stop is reckless.

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

10 Gauge for lines carrying high amperage. 14 Gauge for lower amperage things like 120V plugs if your using pumps, you could even go 18 gauge or something for PID/SSR data pins if you wanted but i didnt bother because its just more crimp connectors i had to buy...so i just did 10 for all high amps and 14 for everything else.

 

[Vesteroid]

You cannot interchange 240 and 120 in that diagram. You need to supply 120 to the pids and pumps and cannot put 240 in as it's wired now.

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree that you can't use any existing diagram to mix and match 120 and 240v but most PIDs will take either 120v or 240v on the power input (to run the electronics within the PID). Also, you can get pumps in 230v.

You have to plan the wiring very carefully to make it adaptable back and forth between 120v and 240v. Actually, the most realistic way to go is to build a 120v controller now and then build a new one for 240 when you have access to it. You can easily sell the first one.

 

[Justdrumin]

10 Gauge for lines carrying high amperage. 14 Gauge for lower amperage things like 120V plugs if your using pumps, you could even go 18 gauge or something for PID/SSR data pins if you wanted but i didnt bother because its just more crimp connectors i had to buy...so i just did 10 for all high amps and 14 for everything else.

This is essentially what I was going to do, but I suppose I'm too much of a noob at electric brewing to know what in the controller is 120v other than the plugs for my pump. I understand the power in needs to be 14ga, but what parts are high amps? I'm not familiar at all.

You cannot interchange 240 and 120 in that diagram. You need to supply 120 to the pids and pumps and cannot put 240 in as it's wired now.

I don't plan on feeding it with both 240v and 120v at the same time. I would like to be able to convert it to 240v in the future with minimal changes. According to that thread, PJ states it would be very easy to change the controller outlined in the diagram to a 240v system. I'm wondering how to do that.

 

[Justdrumin]

More information is needed - what components are you talking about? The PID Power? 18AWG - more than plenty big enough for a 1amp fuse protecting it. The pump circuit is unprotected in the circuit, so we rely on the 20amp circuit breaker in your house, so you'll need 12AWG for that and the element. What kind of wire are you using inside the panel? MTW?

Dont wire the e-stop circuit. Tripping the GFCI as an e-stop is reckless.

It seems like most are wiring the e stop like that. Is there a reason not too? Why is it considered reckless? The components I'm talking about are the switches, contractor, ssr, paid, outlet for pump, etc.

 

[Vesteroid]

Not arguing with Bobby at all here, but since your self expressed as new to electric, it's easy to make some "wrong" assumptions. I would wife it as shown and when your ready worry about upgrading to 240. That's the safest bet. As to wire size think of it this way, the largest size you end at 15 Amps is 14 gauge. The only thing drawing that much current is your element. So make all the wires leading to your element 14 gauge and all "control" wiring 18 if you want.

 

[Vesteroid]

It would be rather easy to convert to 240. If that was my goal I would wire line 1 with 10 gauge now. Then when you convert its a matter of bringing in a line 2 and bringing it to the place you have a neutral on the contactor (hot side not coil side) also from the neutral side of the contactor (between contactor and plug) make that run 10 gauge.

 

[augiedoggy]

all "control" power wires for pids ,indicators and ssr control can be as small as 22awg.... They have less than 1 amp going through them. there is no logical reason to use 14 gauge for these since it will be more work and is extreme overkill. the leads and power traces inside the indicators and pids are tiny .... Its like running a 1" fuel line to a 4 cylinder automotive combustion engine IMO. all this is located inside an enclosure to protect it from damage so that reasoning doesnt hold here either.

I have all my "control power" for all 3 of my pids and timer and indicators and meters on one single 1 amp fused line... no problems just to give you an idea of how little draw we are talking about.

 

[Bobby_M]

It would be rather easy to convert to 240. If that was my goal I would wire line 1 with 10 gauge now. Then when you convert its a matter of bringing in a line 2 and bringing it to the place you have a neutral on the contactor (hot side not coil side) also from the neutral side of the contactor (between contactor and plug) make that run 10 gauge.

The above is true but it's more complicated than this suggests. First, if the whole panel is based on a 3-wire line in, he will have a neutral for now and no problem with running a 120v pump, and using a contactor with a 120v coil. When changing over to 240v, that incoming neutral will go away and anything that required 120v needs to be changed out.
Alternatively the panel could be upgraded to a 4-wire line in for L1, L2, Neutral and ground and then the 120v devices continue to work as designed. The L2 hot would have to be isolated to only go to the contactor (the coil would have to remain on the neutral).

The reason it's important to bring up now is that it would be wasteful to run 10/3 wire into the box now in anticipation for 240v when it would still need to be replaced by 10/4 in the future.

I stick with my original suggestion to build it for 120v, 20 amp now and build a new one later. You'll learn a lot about what your wants are in the meantime and you'd probably redesign it anyway.

 

[Vesteroid]

You (bobby) are absolutely correct and that goes to show the details we have both refered to. I sit here with a 50a back to back Kals panel so I was assuming a 4 wire build

Your suggestion of 120 now and new panel later also makes more sense, as I suspect when you go 240 you may desire to control more than one element.

 

[atoughram]

It seems like most are wiring the e stop like that. Is there a reason not too? Why is it considered reckless? The components I'm talking about are the switches, contractor, ssr, paid, outlet for pump, etc.

I consider it reckless because your relying on the GFCI to trip. If your GFCI is mis-wired, old, faulty, etc, it might not trip. Thats why they put a test button on them, to test them occasionally.

The better solution would be to wire the main contactor in PJ's diagram to shut down the whole rig, and put an e-stop on that if you must have a red mushroom button.

I've worked in the Manufacturing Electronics Maintenance field for 30 years and have never seen an E-Stop on something that didn't have motion, but each to their own. Having an E-Stop on process equipment such as this, without motion, isn't unsafe.

Here's how I'd wire it - you could add another 120V light on either side of the element too if you want to know when the element is firing.

You could also add fuses for the pump and PID.

 

[doug293cz]

It would be rather easy to convert to 240. If that was my goal I would wire line 1 with 10 gauge now. Then when you convert its a matter of bringing in a line 2 and bringing it to the place you have a neutral on the contactor (hot side not coil side) also from the neutral side of the contactor (between contactor and plug) make that run 10 gauge.

Like this:



Brew on

 

[atoughram]

I forgot to say - Wire size is determined by what is protecting that wire, not the current flow in it.

For instance, the 20amp circuit breaker in your house determines that you'll have 12-2 NMO Romex wire in the walls, had it been a 15amp breaker, you'll have 14-2 wire.

I like to use MTW wire for hookup wire inside a panel. Google "MTW Ampacity" comes up with many ampacity tables.

http://www.automationdirect.com/static/specs/wiremtw.pdf

If you put a 1 amp fuse in to protect your PID, all the wiring down stream of the fuse will never see a current more than one amp continuous. To save money and make wiring easier, you dont have to use 14 guage, or 16 guage wire. 18 Guage MTW has an ampacity of 6 amps and you could use that.

In my panel, I have #6 AWG coming up from the spa panel to a bank of circuit breakers because it's a 50a circuit. There are two 25a two pole breakers for the HLT and BK elements and a 10a two pole for the RIMS element. Down stream of those circuit breakers I use 10AWG on the 25a breakers and 16awg on the 10 amp breakers to go through the SSR's and into the elements.

I do not add crimp connectors on my wiring unless I absolutely have to. While they might look pretty, each mechanical connection creates heat and a point of failure. Most electrical gear is made to clamp the wires directly.

 

[Justdrumin]

The above is true but it's more complicated than this suggests. First, if the whole panel is based on a 3-wire line in, he will have a neutral for now and no problem with running a 120v pump, and using a contactor with a 120v coil. When changing over to 240v, that incoming neutral will go away and anything that required 120v needs to be changed out.
Alternatively the panel could be upgraded to a 4-wire line in for L1, L2, Neutral and ground and then the 120v devices continue to work as designed. The L2 hot would have to be isolated to only go to the contactor (the coil would have to remain on the neutral).

The reason it's important to bring up now is that it would be wasteful to run 10/3 wire into the box now in anticipation for 240v when it would still need to be replaced by 10/4 in the future.

I stick with my original suggestion to build it for 120v, 20 amp now and build a new one later. You'll learn a lot about what your wants are in the meantime and you'd probably redesign it anyway.

Ok Bobby. I'm on board with you. With your experience and expertise I think I would be a fool not to listen to you. I was actually going to wire what needs to be 10 ga in the controller and supply the controller with 12 or 14 ga.

So if I were to wire it to solely be 120v, would I just wire the whole thing with 14 awg to make it simple. I realize it's unnecessary, but I could buy bulk 14/3 wire pretty cheap and call it a day. Also, do you agree with the e stop issues that were brought up? I ordered one, but if it's not necessary I won't use it. Is there anything you would change in that wiring diagram pj drew up? Thanks so much for your help by the way. I'm very excited about BIAB and I love the idea of electric brewing. Especially since I can't have any gas on my apartment patio. I've been brewing in the parking lot and I get lots of funny looks with my 70 quart kettle and turkey fryer.