What does this step mash accomplish?

[Hwk-I-St8]

I now have the ability to do step mashes if I want and the recipe I'm looking at has a step mash option or a single infusion mash. The step mash looks like this:

135 - 15 mins
145 - 35 mins
165 - 25 mins
172 - 5 mins

Obviously the 172 is mashout, which I'll skip since I'm doing recirculating BIAB. I'm assuming the 135 is a protein, 145 is beta saccharification, 165 is alpha. My questions are this:

1) the 165 seems high....is that a normal rest?
2) What does this mean for the finished beer? I'm assuming the two sacc rests will result in a more fermentable wort. What will the protein rest do to the final product.

I'm using a floor malted maris otter for this beer....

 

[PhillyBrewDoug]

The protein rest will help break down larger proteins, which potentially reduces chill haze and makes them into the kind of proteins good for head retention. It can also help break down any "gummy" grains like flaked oats. If you don't have any, it wont hurt to still do it and I wouldn't go any lower than 132, personally.

The 165 is definitely high for an alpha-amylase rest. I would bump it down to 160. One thing people forget is that alpha-amylase actually converts starches into UN-fermentable sugars, which is why fuller-bodied beers are usually mashed at a higher temp. That rest will help balance out the low beta-amylase rest which, by itself, would be a really dry beer.

 

[PhillyBrewDoug]

Here's a good read for step mashing: https://byo.com/article/the-science-of-step-mashing/

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Here's a good read for step mashing: https://byo.com/article/the-science-of-step-mashing/

That's a great article. Thanks.

 

[lowtones84]

I agree that 165 is a bit high, but the rest looks good to me. I know a lot of people don't step mash but I'm a big fan. I even have to go the slightly more difficult route of boiling water additions and it's worth it to me.

 

[PhillyBrewDoug]

I agree that 165 is a bit high, but the rest looks good to me. I know a lot of people don't step mash but I'm a big fan. I even have to go the slightly more difficult route of boiling water additions and it's worth it to me.

Definitely worth it. Can't do an Altbier without if you're following tradition.

 

[JohnMc]

One thing people forget is that alpha-amylase actually converts starches into UN-fermentable sugars,

It makes a mix of fermentable and unfermentable sugars, as well as a mix of dextrins.
Its activity (cutting in the middle) would allow it to basically cut anywhere. Its catalytic rate is slower close to ends of starch chains, but still cuts.

FWIW, Fix's 50-60-70 °C step mash works very well. (122, 140, 158 °F)

 

[bracconiere]

I would bump it down to 160

+1

 

[Noob_Brewer]

The protein rest will help break down larger proteins, which potentially reduces chill haze and makes them into the kind of proteins good for head retention. It can also help break down any "gummy" grains like flaked oats. If you don't have any, it wont hurt to still do it and I wouldn't go any lower than 132, personally.

The 165 is definitely high for an alpha-amylase rest. I would bump it down to 160. One thing people forget is that alpha-amylase actually converts starches into UN-fermentable sugars, which is why fuller-bodied beers are usually mashed at a higher temp. That rest will help balance out the low beta-amylase rest which, by itself, would be a really dry beer.

Ok, Ive read the link you posted on step mashing before but it never hit me until you worded it this way with the protein rest helping to break down any "gummy" grains like flaked oats. Ive been brewing NEIPAs that have ~10-30% oats (flaked or malted) and white wheat as well. As a result my worts have been very sticky for sure and Ive been getting ~74-79% mash efficiency on those beers but the head retention is only good when using combinations of malted oats and/or a small bit of carahell. So my question is: even if the oats are pre-gelatinized will the portion rest help to improve mash efficiency potentially? Thinking of trying this with a 15 min at 135 and the rest of mash at 154 instead of all at 154.

 

[PhillyBrewDoug]

So my question is: even if the oats are pre-gelatinized will the portion rest help to improve mash efficiency potentially?

It definitely shouldn’t hurt your efficiency. Honestly, I think getting high 70’s on a NEIPA is pretty darn good.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

It definitely shouldn’t hurt your efficiency. Honestly, I think getting high 70’s on a NEIPA is pretty darn good.

Thanks. Yeah I’ve been pretty happy with those efficiencies given the grain Bills I’ve been using. But always considering new things to help. My only concern is that my brewdays for last two beers I’ve targeted 154-155 to finish gravity a little higher at 1.014 and they’ve both improved mouthfeel. Given conversion happens quick, just thinking out loud if the protein rest and the temp ramping that follows would result in a wort that would eventually have a FG a little too low ie 1.010-1.011. Hmmm

 

[Snuffy]

Doesn't that take a really long time to mash considering the time it takes to reach each temp and hold it for the specified length of time? I mean, that's an 80 min mash without considering how long it takes to up the temp between levels. I use a Mash and Boil electric unit - which is the only way I see you could dependably hold temps at any levels - and the time for 3 temp changes would probably add another half an hour easy.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Doesn't that take a really long time to mash considering the time it takes to reach each temp and hold it for the specified length of time? I mean, that's an 80 min mash without considering how long it takes to up the temp between levels. I use a Mash and Boil electric unit - which is the only way I see you could dependably hold temps at any levels - and the time for 3 temp changes would probably add another half an hour easy.

Agreed. I’m using the foundry on 240v so I’d imagine it would take 20minutes to get from 130ish to 154. So perhaps if I try it, I might mash in to target 130, hold for 10min then ramp up to 154 at full power. Not sure if I’ll try it but again, always looking to improve my processes if it will improve the beers

 

[PhillyBrewDoug]

Agreed. I’m using the foundry on 240v so I’d imagine it would take 20minutes to get from 130ish to 154. So perhaps if I try it, I might mash in to target 130, hold for 10min then ramp up to 154 at full power. Not sure if I’ll try it but again, always looking to improve my processes if it will improve the beers

I use the 6.5 gal Foundry on 240v. The time between steps really isn’t that long. Also, you could go old fashioned and still do an infusion to raise temps as well, using the Foundry to maintain the temp. Can’t get much faster than that.

My only concern is that my brewdays for last two beers I’ve targeted 154-155 to finish gravity a little higher at 1.014 and they’ve both improved mouthfeel.

Maybe try keeping the higher 160 step in there. Remember in the first post you had both low sacc and high sacc rests. That should help with the mouthfeel.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Also, you could go old fashioned and still do an infusion to raise temps as well,

What exactly do you mean by this? Do you mean starting with a thicker mash in terms of hot much water I’m using during the protein rest and then infuse it with a gallon or so of hotter water (160ish) to raise the temps quickly to 154ish? This would lessen the ramp time for sure if I understand you correctly

 

[PhillyBrewDoug]

Exactly. When I’m doing a step mash, I start my Foundry at my 133 protein rest with about 1.5qt/lb mash, let that sit for 15 minutes, then infuse with enough water to bring it to around 152 and close to 3qt/lb mash. Once the water is in, I bump the Foundry to 152 so it can maintain the temp. That’s also when I start recirculating. Let that sit for 30-45 minutes depending on the recipe. If I remember, I then put the Foundry to 168 for mash-out.

I forget to mash-out often...

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Exactly. When I’m doing a step mash, I start my Foundry at my 133 protein rest with about 1.5qt/gal mash, let that sit for 15 minutes, then infuse with enough water to bring it to around 152 and close to 3qt/gal mash. Once the water is in, I bump the Foundry to 152 so it can maintain the temp. That’s also when I start recirculating. Let that sit for 30-45 minutes depending on the recipe. If I remember, I then put the Foundry to 168 for mash-out.

I forget to mash-out often...

So is there some sort of calculator available to anticipate how much of a rise in temp adding "X" number of volume of hotter water will raise the temp of "Y" volume of water and grain? Im brewing on the 10.5gal and usually bring 16 pounds of grain (15.25 actually + 0.75 of rice hulls which helps I think). Im thinking that if I try this, Id start with ~5gallons of water to strike temp targeting 133 with the grain, then once 15 minutes is up, I would add 2.5gallons (10.4quarts to be exact) of hotter water at about 165? to raise the temperature and that would leave me at a 1.9qt/gal ratio and Id have my 2gallon sparge later on too. Just not sure of two things: 1) what would the resultant temp be if adding 2.5g of water at that temp before the foundry has to pick up the slack and bring mash to 154 and 2) Im not sure how hot the water I add can actually be safely so that it doesn't screw with the enzymes. Seems that I need to get reading literature to figure this out. lol. Anyways, the reason why Im thinking of this protein rest is to 1) potentially help with head retention and 2) potentially help with possibly improving mash efficiency by loosening up the gumminess of a grain bill that has a ~15-20% flaked grains and making the lautering process more effective.

 

[lowtones84]

I'm sure there's something more sophisticated out there, but this is what I use. https://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml

If you use the "Rest Calculator" it calculates how much boiling water you need to add. I find it pretty accurate, but you do need to know what temp you're at at the moment and stir well. I tend to add just a bit more than the calc recommends. Of course, this only works with boiling water, not just hot.

My equipment is very basic so this works for me. Sometimes it's a small enough amount that I can just use my 1.8 qt. electric kettle to boil the water. Other times I need to use a small pot.

 

[PhillyBrewDoug]

So is there some sort of calculator available to anticipate how much of a rise in temp adding "X" number of volume of hotter water will raise the temp of "Y" volume of water and grain?

Oh man, you have so many options out there, it's hard to suggest one. It's really about finding the one program that works best for you. Beersmith, Brewfather.app, and Brewersfriend.com are three that come to the top of my mind. They all have mash profiles that you can configure with the step temps and type, then depending on your recipe, will tell you the infusion temps needed.

Just putting in that grain amount into Beersmith using the Anvil 10.5, it shows starting with 5 gallons at 143.5F to hit the 133F rest temp with room temp grains being added. To get it up to 154F with such a small amount of water, you'd need the 10.4 quarts to be 201F. That's too high in my opinion. The only way around it would to be increase the amount of water being added. Honestly, I would raise both the initial mash in volume and the infusion addition. Maybe only hold back 1 gallon back for sparging? I use a brewbag in my Foundry and just squeeze it instead of sparging. I get in the 70's efficiency as well.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Oh man, you have so many options out there, it's hard to suggest one. It's really about finding the one program that works best for you. Beersmith, Brewfather.app, and Brewersfriend.com are three that come to the top of my mind. They all have mash profiles that you can configure with the step temps and type, then depending on your recipe, will tell you the infusion temps needed.

Just putting in that grain amount into Beersmith using the Anvil 10.5, it shows starting with 5 gallons at 143.5F to hit the 133F rest temp with room temp grains being added. To get it up to 154F with such a small amount of water, you'd need the 10.4 quarts to be 201F. That's too high in my opinion. The only way around it would to be increase the amount of water being added. Honestly, I would raise both the initial mash in volume and the infusion addition. Maybe only hold back 1 gallon back for sparging? I use a brewbag in my Foundry and just squeeze it instead of sparging. I get in the 70's efficiency as well.

Yeah, Im using beer smith and did exactly what you did and got an infusion of 199.1 actually to bring the 5 gallons of wort up to 154 when adding 10.4qt at 199 to the mash. That makes me nervous too. Ive typically sparged 1.5 gallons to get my preboil volume, so there seems to be a "give and take" here. I use a bag in the malt pipe as well and the times Ive had the highest efficiencies: 79.0 and 78.7% my grain crushes were very fine (.028" and 0.030") too and I "worked" that bag like it owed me money lol. The other times I'm in the 74-76% range with a moderate (0.035ish) grain crush range. Nevertheless, I am happy with my efficiencies overall but with these NEIPAs with a high amount of oats/etc, if the protein rest can help with efficiencies by allowing for a better lauter, Im willing to try it at least once.
I just want some sort of data to show me what the actual temp rise would be if I added x amount of hot water to the y amount of mash so that I knew or at least had an idea on how far short of the target temp Id be. Seems I will need to think through this a little more before I try it. Thanks @lowtones84 for the link. I'll take a look.