Quantcast

What do you use when you squeeze BIAB?

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

OP
Shawn3997

Shawn3997

Will brew for beer.
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
127
Reaction score
29
My recipe is the Brown Porter from Brewing Classic Styles.

I added 7.3 gallons of water to 12.13 lbs. of grains and post-mash I got a refractometer reading of 1.047, though I didn't know how much water would be lost to the grain at that time. Post draining and squeezing, I ended up with 1.055 for 6.5 gallons, losing 0.8 gallon of water to the grain.

Working backwards in BeerSmith, a 1.047 for 6.5 gallons would have given me 71% overall efficiency, and a 1.055 for 6.5 gallons ended up giving me 83% efficiency. So that's like 12% more efficiency if you do 83-71. It's 17% more efficiency if you do ((83-71)/71)*100 and it's 17% more efficiency if you do ((55-47)/47)*100.

That's how I got the 12% number. I think if you're going to do a "squeeze" vs. "no-squeeze" you need to use a common volume although it may not matter what that volume is if you're doing percentages, just as long as the readings are for a common volume.
 

wilserbrewer

BIAB Expert Tailor
Joined
May 25, 2007
Messages
11,248
Reaction score
2,809
Location
New Jersey
I did hang and drain for my first few BIABs, but after letting it drain, then putting it aside for the boil, I could see, after a couple of hours, 2 or 3 more pints of wort in the bottom of the dump bucket, and if I squeezed the now-cold bag, could get, from most average grain bills, a gallon more. So I became a squeezer (more of a hang and twist, but still...)



Still, I appreciate your lazy approach for its ease and simplicity!

This is very different from my experience. After hanging above the kettle for 20 - 30 minutes I find less than a pint.

Was your bag sitting in a bucket not allowing it to drain?

A gallon left after a thorough gravity drain astounds me ???

Whatever works for you I guess.

Sometimes I squeeze and the bag is still dripping, so in my mind gravity prevails if the wort is free to run out of the bag.

It's hard resisting the temptation to get squeezing. But try hard and ignore the bag for 30 minutes...jmo
 

Black Island Brewer

An Ode to Beer
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
2,168
Reaction score
887
Location
Isla Negra
This is very different from my experience. After hanging above the kettle for 20 - 30 minutes I find less than a pint.

Was your bag sitting in a bucket not allowing it to drain?

A gallon left after a thorough gravity drain astounds me ???

Whatever works for you I guess.

Sometimes I squeeze and the bag is still dripping, so in my mind gravity prevails if the wort is free to run out of the bag.

It's hard resisting the temptation to get squeezing. But try hard and ignore the bag for 30 minutes...jmo
I understand your disbelief! I feel just as incredulous every time you say you leave behind less than a pint!
The time I started squeezing what when I did a berliner weisse, milled into powder through my "ugly junk corona mill" clamp down to the tightest setting I can get it. After a half hour, it was still draining, and when my anticipated pre-boil volume was way off, I started squeezing. Initially I started squeezing just enough to get me to my expected pre-boil volume, then I started adjusting my software to account for less grain absorption. The drier spent grains has also benefited the folks who take my spent grains and make dog treats out of them and/or feed them to their chickens.
 

doug293cz

BIABer, Beer Math Nerd, ePanel Designer, Pilot
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
10,986
Reaction score
7,119
Location
Renton
My recipe is the Brown Porter from Brewing Classic Styles.

I added 7.3 gallons of water to 12.13 lbs. of grains and post-mash I got a refractometer reading of 1.047, though I didn't know how much water would be lost to the grain at that time. Post draining and squeezing, I ended up with 1.055 for 6.5 gallons, losing 0.8 gallon of water to the grain.

Working backwards in BeerSmith, a 1.047 for 6.5 gallons would have given me 71% overall efficiency, and a 1.055 for 6.5 gallons ended up giving me 83% efficiency. So that's like 12% more efficiency if you do 83-71. It's 17% more efficiency if you do ((83-71)/71)*100 and it's 17% more efficiency if you do ((55-47)/47)*100.

That's how I got the 12% number. I think if you're going to do a "squeeze" vs. "no-squeeze" you need to use a common volume although it may not matter what that volume is if you're doing percentages, just as long as the readings are for a common volume.
Sorry, but (as I'll explain below) your numbers don't add up, which indicates that you have significant measurement errors in your SG's and/or volumes.

Let's assume that your pre-squeeze grain absorption rate was the same as for a traditional MLT, or 0.12 gal/lb. A long bag drain can have a lower rate than this, so this analysis will actually be conservative. At 12.13 lbs and 0.12 gal/lb absorption, your pre-squeeze wort volume would have been 7.3 - 12.13 * 0.12 = 5.84 gal. 5.84 gal @ 1.047 SG would give you 5.84 * 47 = 274.5 gravity points. Your final wort volume at 6.5 gal @ 1.055 SG would have had 6.5 * 55 = 357.5 gravity points. Your squeezed wort volume was 6.5 - 5,84 = 0.66 gal, and would have had to contain 357.5 - 274.5 = 83 gravity points. This would have required the squeezed wort to have an SG = 1 + 0.001 * 83 / 0.66 = 1.126. This is an impossibly high wort SG for any kind of normal mash conditions.

Where could the measurement errors have originated:
  • If you have your bag in a strainer basket, then the wort outside the basket is likely to have a lower SG than the wort in the grain inside the bag. It would be almost impossible to homogenize the wort SG thruought the entire voluem by stirring, The likely result is stratified wort in the BK when the SG sample was taken. To remedy this, you would need to aggressively stir the BK after dtraining the bag.
  • SG's were measured at too high temps leading to errors.
  • Conversion wasn't complete when the bag was initially drained, and some addition conversion occurred prior to or during squeezing. This could cause the squeezed wort to be slightly higher SG than the initial wort, but nowhere near the difference needed to get your numbers.

The net is your efficiency calcs are totally unreliable.

Brew on :mug:
 

Atlmustang

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2016
Messages
229
Reaction score
63
So...you can squeeze the bag? I thought squeezing the grains pushes out unwanted tannins and what not which is why you don't squeeze the muslin bag in extract brewing?

I simply just put my bag into a strainer slightly larger than my smaller 5 gal stock pot and allow it to drain out for about 15 minutes while my wort in my brew kettle works on getting to a boil and then I just add the drained wort to the kettle.
 

JackiePaper

Active Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2016
Messages
29
Reaction score
3
Location
Chicago
I don't squeeze at all. I put a cooling rack (like used for cookies or cakes) on top of my brew kettle and rest the bag on top of this, allowing it to drip into the pot. I heat the volume of water I need to top off to my pre-boil volume and pour that with a large ladle over the grain bag as a 'modified fly sparge'.
 

sfish

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
326
Reaction score
52
Location
Perry Hall, MD
Does anyone use more than one bag and split the grain evenly. Makes squeezing less work.
 

doug293cz

BIABer, Beer Math Nerd, ePanel Designer, Pilot
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
10,986
Reaction score
7,119
Location
Renton
So...you can squeeze the bag? I thought squeezing the grains pushes out unwanted tannins and what not which is why you don't squeeze the muslin bag in extract brewing?

...
Old wives tale. Tannin extraction is due to high temps in combination with hight pH (~6 or higher.) There are commercial breweries (Alaskan is one) that use pneumatic or hydraulic filter presses to squeeze the wort out of the grain. They squeeze harder than you possibly can.

Brew on :mug:
 

HOPME

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
138
Reaction score
51
Location
Central NY
Old wives tale. Tannin extraction is due to high temps in combination with hight pH (~6 or higher.) There are commercial breweries (Alaskan is one) that use pneumatic or hydraulic filter presses to squeeze the wort out of the grain. They squeeze harder than you possibly can.

Brew on :mug:
^^^This 100%^^^
 

hopkincr

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
725
Reaction score
2,453
Location
Omaha, NE
Old wives tale. Tannin extraction is due to high temps in combination with hight pH (~6 or higher.) There are commercial breweries (Alaskan is one) that use pneumatic or hydraulic filter presses to squeeze the wort out of the grain. They squeeze harder than you possibly can.



Brew on :mug:

I don't know, I'm pretty strong... Seriously, though, I use a cake/cookie cooling rack and then let gravity do its thing for a few minutes then squeeze after that. Then, I take the grains and dry them in the oven to use for energy bars and dog biscuits.
 

TomVA

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Nov 12, 2016
Messages
111
Reaction score
43
Location
Floyd
I drain the bag by holding it above the mash pot for a few minutes, then place it in a metal colander in a metal pot and squeeze by pressing down with a metal bowl. Be careful using any glass in this type of process! If it breaks while pressing down hard you could get seriously cut.

TomVA
 

Peruvian802

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2012
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
575
Location
Green Mountains
I use a ratchet /pulley system from Wilser. Pull the bag, let it drain and then I have some silicone gloves I put on to squeeze that mutha.
 

rmchair

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
129
Reaction score
16
Having a metal basket with a bag inside, I push down on the bag:) from above with a potato masher.
 

Morrey

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
Messages
3,529
Reaction score
1,378
Location
Coastal, SC
I use the same setup like when I do pulled pork while it is hot. First layer thin cotton gloves then put a latex glove on over that cotton glove. Works like a charm plus is food safe for lots of uses.
 

inhousebrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2012
Messages
1,486
Reaction score
128
Location
minneapolis
Do any of you folks that use a ratchet and pulley or built a frame to hang your bag from mind sharing some pictures or a link to another thread. I'm debating what to upgrade to right now from the hoist and squeeze method.
 

snathanb

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2016
Messages
18
Reaction score
3
Having a metal basket with a bag inside, I push down on the bag:) from above with a potato masher.
Same here.. I use a colander that is designed to fit a sink and has expandable arms and so fits my brew kettle perfectly, then use a stainless steel potato masher, after letting it drain 30 mins or so.
 

Morrey

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2016
Messages
3,529
Reaction score
1,378
Location
Coastal, SC
Do any of you folks that use a ratchet and pulley or built a frame to hang your bag from mind sharing some pictures or a link to another thread. I'm debating what to upgrade to right now from the hoist and squeeze method.
My rafters are open and exposed in my outdoor man cave. Makes it easy to loop a chain around the rafter and hook one of Wilserbag's heavy pulley systems to it. I can pull 22# of soaked grain in a nylon bag with no issues.
 

JDXX1971

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
1,009
Reaction score
289
Location
Mendocino
I squeeze with my clean bare hands, but i am a tough mofo :-D
Me too, but I got skin like work glove leather. Does get hot after a few squeezes, so I take a break for a sec and let my hands cool down and then right back to it.
 

JDXX1971

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
1,009
Reaction score
289
Location
Mendocino
Do any of you folks that use a ratchet and pulley or built a frame to hang your bag from mind sharing some pictures or a link to another thread. I'm debating what to upgrade to right now from the hoist and squeeze method.
Here is my awesome hoist frame Jaybird built for me, with the large ratchet pulley from Wilserbrewer that I added an additional pulley to, making pulling the bag super easy. Just dont mind the mess of my yard K?

IMG_20161225_121553358.jpg
 

petrolSpice

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2013
Messages
833
Reaction score
98
I use gloves and my hands and arms. I can get a few good squeezes before taking a break to let the burns cool down.

I tried using a 15" colander that sits on top of the kettle, but the bag plugs the holes of the colander and drains poorly. I need to widen the holes.
 

Murphys_Law

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2015
Messages
1,369
Reaction score
1,047
Location
Denver area
Do any of you folks that use a ratchet and pulley or built a frame to hang your bag from mind sharing some pictures or a link to another thread. I'm debating what to upgrade to right now from the hoist and squeeze method.
I went ghetto and built a stand out of 1/2" black pipe purchased at Home Depot. I painted it red, or you can use galvanized but it will cost a little more. I think it cost something in the neighborhood of $80 total.

I built it "modular" so it is easily taken apart for set up and storage.

Build list:

Bottom of the stand uses:
2 24" pipes for the legs
1 18" pipe for the support (this helps stabilize the stand when I have things hanging on the "accessory arm")
1 "T"
1 elbow
2 6" pipes for the support
1 cap

Pole and top of stand uses:
1 36" pipe
coupler (you could easily use one long pipe but I went this route to make for a smaller when in storage)
1 24" pipe
1 "T"
24" pipe for accessory arm (I hang my water and sanitizer bottle here, and have some hooks to hang mash paddle, lid, etc)
1 8" pipes
1 elbow.

I have the ratchet pulley on one of the 8" pipes which hangs over my kettle.

Easy to set up and tear down, works like a charm, and cheap and easy to build. And it's 100% customizable!

Edit to add: I used this with grain bills ~14 pounds

Bottom Brew Stand.jpg


Middle Brew Stand.jpg


Top Brew Stand.jpg
 

rhys333

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 27, 2013
Messages
2,953
Reaction score
962
Location
Edmonton
Don't you folks get twangy off flavors, astringency, etc when you squeeze the heck out of the bag? I find it's just not worth it, even after carefully adjusting mash pH. I just dunk sparge, hang to drain, and I'm happy with the 78-80% efficiency and assurance of a clean end product. If I push into the mid 80s, I risk getting a less than stellar beer that I might as well dump.
 

JDXX1971

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2016
Messages
1,009
Reaction score
289
Location
Mendocino
Don't you folks get twangy off flavors, astringency, etc when you squeeze the heck out of the bag? I find it's just not worth it, even after carefully adjusting mash pH. I just dunk sparge, hang to drain, and I'm happy with the 78-80% efficiency and assurance of a clean end product. If I push into the mid 80s, I risk getting a less than stellar beer that I might as well dump.
I guess I wouldn't know really, I am a brand NooB. But I don't really feel like I am squeezing the heck out of it either, with 14+ #'s of grain it is hard to get a hold of. I would describe what I am doing as more of a milking action and pretty gentle actually. Furthermore I believe that squeezing is common practice in some commercial breweries and obviously here among us and I haven't heard any complaints of off flavors.

sincerely, Milking the Grist :goat:
 

doug293cz

BIABer, Beer Math Nerd, ePanel Designer, Pilot
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
10,986
Reaction score
7,119
Location
Renton
Don't you folks get twangy off flavors, astringency, etc when you squeeze the heck out of the bag? I find it's just not worth it, even after carefully adjusting mash pH. I just dunk sparge, hang to drain, and I'm happy with the 78-80% efficiency and assurance of a clean end product. If I push into the mid 80s, I risk getting a less than stellar beer that I might as well dump.
If squeezing caused astringency, then commercial breweries wouldn't be using filter presses to squeeze the living crap out of their spent grains. You're still hung up on an old wives tale.

Brew on :mug:
 

TexasWine

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
2,410
Reaction score
676
Location
Houston
If squeezing caused astringency, then commercial breweries wouldn't be using filter presses to squeeze the living crap out of their spent grains. You're still hung up on an old wives tale.

Brew on :mug:
After doing some reading on the various methods for milling, I've been wondering about these filter presses and hammer mills that grind to flour. Has it been confirmed that those commercial outfits that use these pieces of equipment don't also use a peeler to remove the husk before cracking the grain open and subsequently mashing, sans husks?

Reason I ask is obvious. If they do in fact use a peeler in conjunction with a hammer mills and/or press, then it wouldn't be an apples to apples comparison. But if they don't separate the husk, then we can be confident the comparison holds!
 

doug293cz

BIABer, Beer Math Nerd, ePanel Designer, Pilot
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
10,986
Reaction score
7,119
Location
Renton
After doing some reading on the various methods for milling, I've been wondering about these filter presses and hammer mills that grind to flour. Has it been confirmed that those commercial outfits that use these pieces of equipment don't also use a peeler to remove the husk before cracking the grain open and subsequently mashing, sans husks?

Reason I ask is obvious. If they do in fact use a peeler in conjunction with a hammer mills and/or press, then it wouldn't be an apples to apples comparison. But if they don't separate the husk, then we can be confident the comparison holds!
Fair point. I have not seen any mention of using husk removal in any of the stuff I have read on using filter presses, but that proves nothing. I do know a guy putting in a hammer mill and filter press system. I'll try to remember to ask him next time I see him.

Brew on :mug:
 

rhys333

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 27, 2013
Messages
2,953
Reaction score
962
Location
Edmonton
If squeezing caused astringency, then commercial breweries wouldn't be using filter presses to squeeze the living crap out of their spent grains. You're still hung up on an old wives tale.

Brew on :mug:
It's definitely not an old wives tale. I've experimented over manty batches and squeezed bags consistently resulted in lower quality astringent beer, whereas the "drip" batches are consistently clean. I do include a dunk sparge, and many that squeeze may not be including this step.
 

rhys333

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 27, 2013
Messages
2,953
Reaction score
962
Location
Edmonton
I guess I wouldn't know really, I am a brand NooB. But I don't really feel like I am squeezing the heck out of it either, with 14+ #'s of grain it is hard to get a hold of. I would describe what I am doing as more of a milking action and pretty gentle actually. Furthermore I believe that squeezing is common practice in some commercial breweries and obviously here among us and I haven't heard any complaints of off flavors.

sincerely, Milking the Grist :goat:
Well there's good commercial beer and then there's a whole lotta not so good commercial beer, so we need to factor that in. Also process varies quite a bit from what we're doing, and even between homebrewers methods differ quite a bit too. Efficiency is virtually the same (like a point or three) and the beer is as clean as a whistle and a lot better in my experience. I believe one of the BIAB champions on here has stated he does not squeeze. A quick search and you'll find it.
 

doug293cz

BIABer, Beer Math Nerd, ePanel Designer, Pilot
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
10,986
Reaction score
7,119
Location
Renton
It's definitely not an old wives tale. I've experimented over manty batches and squeezed bags consistently resulted in lower quality astringent beer, whereas the "drip" batches are consistently clean. I do include a dunk sparge, and many that squeeze may not be including this step.
Do you have any data from controlled experiments with blind tastings for evaluation? If not, it's nothing but anecdotal. The preponderance of evidence is against squeezing causing astringency.

Brew on :mug:
 

rhys333

Supporting Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
May 27, 2013
Messages
2,953
Reaction score
962
Location
Edmonton
Do you have any data from controlled experiments with blind tastings for evaluation? If not, it's nothing but anecdotal. The preponderance of evidence is against squeezing causing astringency.

Brew on :mug:
Of couse I don't have data from controlled experiments and blind tastings for evalution. I brew beer to drink it, not dissect it. If you like you can brew a beer using my methods, do a controlled experiment, conduct blind taste tests for evaluation and report back. Keep in mind we're going to need qualified taste testers with highly refined palates in order to ensure the most accurate results.
 

BKish25

New Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2015
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
I got three 3-gal icing buckets from the bakery at my local grocery store. The buckets stack nicely and I converted them into a press by drilling out the bottom of the second bucket in a hex pattern using a 3/16" bit, the holes about an inch apart.

I still squeeze the bag manually first to get out the large pool of water on the grain bed, then transfer it to the press.
 

doug293cz

BIABer, Beer Math Nerd, ePanel Designer, Pilot
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
10,986
Reaction score
7,119
Location
Renton
After doing some reading on the various methods for milling, I've been wondering about these filter presses and hammer mills that grind to flour. Has it been confirmed that those commercial outfits that use these pieces of equipment don't also use a peeler to remove the husk before cracking the grain open and subsequently mashing, sans husks?

Reason I ask is obvious. If they do in fact use a peeler in conjunction with a hammer mills and/or press, then it wouldn't be an apples to apples comparison. But if they don't separate the husk, then we can be confident the comparison holds!
Fair point. I have not seen any mention of using husk removal in any of the stuff I have read on using filter presses, but that proves nothing. I do know a guy putting in a hammer mill and filter press system. I'll try to remember to ask him next time I see him.

Brew on :mug:
Had a chance to talk to the guy putting in a brewery that will use a hammer mill and filter press. He said that these systems are very popular in Belgium, and he has not heard of any use of de-husking with these systems. He also said that these systems typically run at ~98% mash efficiency, as the spent grain after pressing is pretty much dry.

Brew on :mug:
 

snathanb

Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2016
Messages
18
Reaction score
3
I got three 3-gal icing buckets from the bakery at my local grocery store. The buckets stack nicely and I converted them into a press by drilling out the bottom of the second bucket in a hex pattern using a 3/16" bit, the holes about an inch apart.

I still squeeze the bag manually first to get out the large pool of water on the grain bed, then transfer it to the press.
I just tried this.. as I was walking through a Walmart and they had 5 gallons buckets on sale. It worked great! I got quite a bit more out of the grain than I did before just squeeze or mashing the bag.
 
Top