what creates award winning beer

[Billy-Klubb]

who the flocc is talking about buying expensive equipment?!?

 

[applescrap]

Sorry brah just assume most people have more than $20 invested

 

[MattyIce]

As someone who has submitted beers with average scores as low as 25 and as high as 44, I would say that luck has a bit to do with it as well. My breakdown would be:

33% Recipe
33% Process
34% What the judges are looking for

 

[Billy-Klubb]

Sorry brah just assume most people have more than $20 invested

and what if they do? are you better than them because you didn't "need" to spend as much as them? are they arrogant for having more expensive equipment? why would this even be brought up when no one else had mentioned it?

 

[drainbamage]

But when I first started brewing I was shocked at my local beer store how worried they were about not having an ingredient or getting the weight right. They were like you mean you want to substitute! Or that I would just change the recipe adding different s*** as I saw fit. I can say with definitive proof and knowledge what you put in it is what you get out and yes affected by the process. I've tasted every grain in every store I've been in if you haven't then you really don't understand a very massive piece of brewing.

No one is knocking substitutions. They're fine if handled intelligently. Subbing Citra because the LHBS was out of Amarillo will probably work, subbing a lager yeast in a saison (and treating it like a saison yeast)...not so much.

 

[paperairplane]

Frankly, if you want to win awards, you have to learn how to 'game' competitions.

I don't really design beers to strictly meet BJCP categories. I brew what I like. There are a lot of tricks to winning awards, not necessarily the same as making great beer. A dead perfect blonde ale can win a category, but probably won't win a best of show.

Finally, know the rules - is it BJCP 08, 15, just people's choice...

 

[applescrap]

As someone who has submitted beers with average scores as low as 25 and as high as 44, I would say that luck has a bit to do with it as well. My breakdown would be:

33% Recipe
33% Process
34% What the judges are looking for

Good for you for admitting luck plays a role. I absolutely agree. I'm a decent golfer but I gotta tell you for a really good round there has to be some luck

 

[applescrap]

and what if they do? are you better than them because you didn't "need" to spend as much as them? are they arrogant for having more expensive equipment? why would this even be brought up when no one else had mentioned it?

Revised it to speak to the true spirit of what I was trying to say.

 

[applescrap]

Frankly, if you want to win awards, you have to learn how to 'game' competitions.

I don't really design beers to strictly meet BJCP categories. I brew what I like. There are a lot of tricks to winning awards, not necessarily the same as making great beer. A dead perfect blonde ale can win a category, but probably won't win a best of show.

Finally, know the rules - is it BJCP 08, 15, just people's choice...

Really well said on winning .... this would be great advice for someone who wants to win. I wouldn't even know how to fit into a style. i like everything strong for starters. The style I like is what's made and readily available for me to drink today while I watch football. Yeah I revise the post earlier on what makes really good beer not award winning I'm curious what you think makes a really good beer

 

[Billy-Klubb]

as stated before:

What makes a great beer depends a lot on the preference of the drinker.

process and recipe formulation have everything to do with what makes a great beer, not luck. luck runs out. it's personal taste that ultimately decides if your beer is great. some folks don't like stouts (heathens!), some folks don't like IPAs (more heathens!), some don't like sours (heathens to a slightly lesser degree). but it doesn't mean because any of the people (dirty dirty heathens!) don't like certain offerings that these beers aren't great to the people that drink/brew them. nailing down process will eliminate things like oxidation, skunking, infection, and yeast derived off flavors from stressed yeast. nailing down recipe formulation/quality ingredients will eliminate all sorts of flavors that don't seem to work well together and ingredient derived off flavors (usually perceived as a staleness and or twang). but in the end, it's what you taste and what you like. what truly makes a really good or great beer will depend on your personal taste profile. are you hitting what you're aiming for?

 

[BreezyBrew]

so I can have a great recipe and it will always turn out to be great beer? I don't have to sanitize anymore? sweet! :rockin:

What I was getting at there wasn't very well said lol. So if I forget roasted barley when I am making a stout, that would be a much bigger fkup than mashing a few degrees high or low (which is a process mistake).

There will always be fundamentals, which I consider in a different category than process. Sanitization would be a fundamental, as well as converting grain to sugar during the mash process which can happen at a wide temp range. Process would have you mash at a specific temp within that range... so an IPA I might always mash 148-152.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

What I was getting at there wasn't very well said lol. So if I forget roasted barley when I am making a stout, that would be a much bigger fkup than mashing a few degrees high or low (which is a process mistake).

There will always be fundamentals, which I consider in a different category than process. Sanitization would be a fundamental, as well as converting grain to sugar during the mash process which can happen at a wide temp range. Process would have you mash at a specific temp within that range... so an IPA I might always mash 148-152.

I caught what you were saying. I didn't put it across very well. I see process as important as recipe.

 

[GHBWNY]

If you really want to win the County fair ribbon wouldn't you make one pie.......?

Sure. ONE PIE... that is the product of perhaps years, if not generations, of making that "same" pie a thousand times, tweaking, changing, adding, subtracting, with different ingredients, times, equipment, conditions --- whatever it takes to get it to the point that at County Fair time, it appears it was just something that Aunt Bessie threw together on a whim one Saturday afternoon when she had nothing else to do.

 

[applescrap]

Sure. ONE PIE... that is the product of perhaps years, if not generations, of making that "same" pie a thousand times, tweaking, changing, adding, subtracting, with different ingredients, times, equipment, conditions --- whatever it takes to get it to the point that at County Fair time, it appears it was just something that Aunt Bessie threw together on a whim one Saturday afternoon when she had nothing else to do.

Fun! Could somebody who watched that person make a similar pie?

 

[cilestiok]

Fun! Could somebody who watched that person make a similar pie?

Not necessarily a blue ribbon award winning pie! But similar counts, right?

Cheers!

 

[Gameface]

Great beer can be made in a bunch of different ways.

Some don't put any special effort into aeration, toss a packet of dry yeast into the fermenter and put the fermenter in a place that doesn't seem all too hot and they very often get good, even very good, results.

But there are things you can do with your process to gain greater control over the outcome. And often certain processes require equipment that facilitates the use of said process. It can add control and flexibility, which doesn't necessarily mean quality. But it does mean that if you're trying to nail down a certain style or achieve a specific flavor that doesn't easily lend itself to extract recipe kit using a generic dry yeast, etc. you can combine processes and equipment to achieve what you're trying to achieve.

The great thing I've learned as a homebrewer is that beer doesn't just mean one thing. If it did we could all go down to the brew shop and pick up the standard recipe kit and all churn out fantastic beer without much in the way of equipment or concern about fermentation temps or specialty yeast strains.

In the end, what makes great beer is yeast. But it's up to us as brewers to push the yeast in the right direction to get the results we want out of it. However it is that you accomplish that is up to you.

 

[GHBWNY]

as stated before: process and recipe formulation have everything to do with what makes a great beer, not luck. luck runs out. it's personal taste that ultimately decides if your beer is great. some folks don't like stouts (heathens!), some folks don't like IPAs (more heathens!), some don't like sours (heathens to a slightly lesser degree). but it doesn't mean because any of the people (dirty dirty heathens!) don't like certain offerings that these beers aren't great to the people that drink/brew them. nailing down process will eliminate things like oxidation, skunking, infection, and yeast derived off flavors from stressed yeast. nailing down recipe formulation/quality ingredients will eliminate all sorts of flavors that don't seem to work well together and ingredient derived off flavors (usually perceived as a staleness and or twang). but in the end, it's what you taste and what you like. what truly makes a really good or great beer will depend on your personal taste profile. are you hitting what you're aiming for?

So, are you saying that, all things being equal, a great beer comes down to personal preference? And if that's the case, why is there a BJCP? Is it just so someone can hear someone else tell them how great their beer is and get a medal for it? Is it possible then that my beer, although it will never be judged, is potentially as great as one that has been? Just askin'.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

So, are you saying that, all things being equal, a great beer comes down to personal preference? And if that's the case, why is there a BJCP? Is it just so someone can hear someone else tell them how great their beer is and get a medal for it? Is it possible then that my beer, although it will never be judged, is potentially as great as one that has been? Just askin'.

sure. if what matters to you is that you are extremely pleased with it. if you're worried about what other people think of your beer, then go the BJCP route. I'm usually happy with what I brew and that's what counts for me. some of my beers may have been gold or silver winners if I cared enough to have them judged. but I won't know because I don't care about any of that jazz. and the way I see the BJCP is keeping the specific styles with-in guidelines.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

Um, I feel memory-deficient/challenged.

Ok back on topic. How come nobody's arguing glass or plastic yet?

the greatest spiced beer in the world? a friend of his, from a brewery no less, told him it was the greatest beer ever brewed? I made an awesome video as a homage to the greatest brew master of all time. his original video was deleted along with the thread. but you can get the point from mine though.

 

[paperairplane]

So a couple points, I'm a chef so I know what you mean about winging it. And it doesn't matter, until it does. Can I make chicken marsala with sweet vermouth or madeira - of course I can. Is it authentic, no.

I make a lot of beer that is too strong and too hoppy for style. I also go very low on esters in most cases. I serve my beer too cold and too carbonated. Because it's mine.

Great beer is clean - which means no flaws. Appropriate levels of esters, DMS, carbonation, etc. Great beer doesn't need time because it's "still a little green" - it never had the flaw in the first place.

Great beer is consistent - anyone can luck out on one batch. Making the same product repeatedly, while maintaining standards is tough.

Great beer is obviously great - I don't love Belgians and sours, but I sure as hell can appreciate a great version. When a beer is so good you like something you don't like, that's great.

So yes, you can make nice beer to drink that is whatever you want - and that's super cool. But say you want to make an Orval clone, there's ingredients you need and steps you have to take to get that result - and you can't half ass that.

As a chef - you can make mashed potatoes, but there's really only one way to make Puree de Pmme de Terre a la Robuchon.

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

the greatest spiced beer in the world? a friend of his, from a brewery no less, told him it was the greatest beer ever brewed? I made an awesome video as a homage to the greatest brew master of all time. his original video was deleted along with the thread. but you can get the point from mine though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDA9qvaJpF8

You're telling me...

This is NOT the greatest beer in the world?

This is just a tribute? ;-)

 

[cjones]

You're telling me...

This is NOT the greatest beer in the world?

This is just a tribute? ;-)

bwhahahhahaha that made my night......

 

[applescrap]

So a couple points, I'm a chef so I know what you mean about winging it. And it doesn't matter, until it does. Can I make chicken marsala with sweet vermouth or madeira - of course I can. Is it authentic, no.

I make a lot of beer that is too strong and too hoppy for style. I also go very low on esters in most cases. I serve my beer too cold and too carbonated. Because it's mine.

Great beer is clean - which means no flaws. Appropriate levels of esters, DMS, carbonation, etc. Great beer doesn't need time because it's "still a little green" - it never had the flaw in the first place.

Great beer is consistent - anyone can luck out on one batch. Making the same product repeatedly, while maintaining standards is tough.

Great beer is obviously great - I don't love Belgians and sours, but I sure as hell can appreciate a great version. When a beer is so good you like something you don't like, that's great.

So yes, you can make nice beer to drink that is whatever you want - and that's super cool. But say you want to make an Orval clone, there's ingredients you need and steps you have to take to get that result - and you can't half ass that.

As a chef - you can make mashed potatoes, but there's really only one way to make Puree de Pmme de Terre a la Robuchon.

This is good

 

[Qhrumphf]

I read the first page or two, got bored. Read the last page. Laughed. Now I guess I have to read everything in between.

"great" or "award winning" beer is subjective depending on who's tasting (or judging) the beer. Recipe or process, it's both. If either is lacking, the beer will be lacking no matter what. If one is mediocre but the other strong, then a good beer can still be made. But for truly top notch beer, both have to be impeccable.

There's a lot more mistakes that can be made with process than with recipe. However, you can also set yourself up with a very consistent process that, while not tailored to each beer, will make passable beer under most circumstances, and then you're just dealing with grain and hop bill (always mash in at X qt per pound with X bottled water source at X temp strike for X temp mash for X time then sparge with X volume water at X temp and pitch X amount of yeast and ferment at X temp and so on and so forth). However, that'll make it hard to make truly great beer.

For me, as I know others have said, it's not making a great beer once. It's being able to make a great beer over and over and over every time and have it come out the same way every time. Otherwise, the great beer is a fluke and you as a brewer just got lucky, not because you're actually skilled at what you do.

As far as my points for "great" beer:

-Keep only as complicated as it needs to be. If you can't justify why something is there and what exactly it adds (or removes) from the beer, maybe it shouldn't be there. That goes for mash schedule, fermentation schedule, grain bill, hop schedule, adjuncts/spices/whatever, all of it.
-Key process points (pitching rate, temp control, aeration, sanitation).
-Tailor all brew parameters (water, mash, etc) for each beer, and the specific goal you're trying to achieve.
-Meticulous measurement and knowledge of your system. You want to be able to accurately predict that if you put X in you will get Y out. When you can brew an identical beer and have every single data point (first runnings, last runnings, mash temp and pH, boiloff, preboil gravity, post boil gravity, and so on and so forth) be identical every time, you're finally getting to the "good brewer" point.

 

[corkybstewart]

Technique beats recipe every time.

 

[applescrap]

-Meticulous measurement and knowledge of your system. You want to be able to accurately predict that if you put X in you will get Y out. When you can brew an identical beer and have every single data point (first runnings, last runnings, mash temp and pH, boiloff, preboil gravity, post boil gravity, and so on and so forth) be identical every time, you're finally getting to the "good brewer" point.

Have you done that wow! If I would open a brewery you are my brewer. I don't own a hydrometer and fit into you first part of post. Great stuff i look forward to rereading. ...bruce lee says in enter the dragon its like finger pointing at heaven look at finger miss heavenly glory

 

[GHBWNY]

the greatest spiced beer in the world? a friend of his, from a brewery no less, told him it was the greatest beer ever brewed? I made an awesome video as a homage to the greatest brew master of all time. his original video was deleted along with the thread. but you can get the point from mine though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDA9qvaJpF8

I have been on this forum for almost 2 years, seeking the Truth and Wisdom of the Greatest Brewers In the World. But one key ingredient has persistently eluded my grasp. I have searched the world over for this holy grail; I have scaled the highest mountain and plied the depths of the deepest ocean in my futile search. Until now...

It was not until happening upon your instructional video, brother, that I discovered the one true secret to making the best beer in the world, and I owe it all you! At the risk of divulging your deepest brewing secrets, but with all due credit going to you, I feel the rest of the world should know this also. So here goes...

The greatest beer in the world must have (and I quote),

"Effervescence snapping with snappiness".

I humbly beseech your blessing to use this as my new signature...

...as soon as my eyes clear long enough to do so.

 

[BreezyBrew]

Let's at least talk about something with a modicum of objectivity to it - award winning beer.

Agree. Repeatability must be in the equation somewhere. Improving an aspect of a particular recipe while keeping everything else the same is an important step to meet your goals.

As homebrewer, there's a lot of variances. Our LHBS may be out of an ingredient, and we have to make a substitution, source it from somewhere else, and risk a branding change or variations within a particular crop. Not all yeast strains are available throughout the year (if you don't harvest, etc.) Our equipment is generally less accurate than commercially made systems... pH meters come to mind. It may even come down to an extrinsic factor...
choosing a less expensive ingredient over another one even though you have always made it with X. Control of these variances shouldn't be neglected. Notes can be worth their weight in gold.

 

[cilestiok]

What really creates award winning beer is it the recipe or the method? Curious!

I just wanted to go back to the beginning before this thread turned into a mess... as these threads always do.

I don't think any decent brewer would discount the importance of recipe design, nor disrespect the intricacies of the brewing process. Not a single piece of my equipment, nor any of the ingredients I use have a measurable factor of "luck" in any of them so I refuse to believe that any beer could be made "award winning" by any amount of luck. The only way I could see "luck" being a factor is if your beer was "lucky" enough to be the only skillfully brewed example entered in your category.

We all could give percentages to recipe or process; 50:50, 60:40, 40:60, whatever... But at the end of the day, you can't make beer with only one or the other. It takes both a quality recipe made with quality ingredients, and proper process performed consistently to creat excellent, award winning beer every time.

 

[Psylocide]

Umm ok where did i say all that....i am not so scientific and yes you are somewhat over doing this arent you. ..this is home brew isnt it? I think you are a bully to. You dont know anything about me why i brew what i brew ... perhaps that would give you some perspective. ..im sorry if you dont think someone can make killer beer in a walmart tamale pot....imo somewhere along the line this is not the spirit of homebrew

I don't think he ever said that, fwiw. Lots of people running ghetto brew rigs making great beers. Focus less on the equipment, most people know you can make great beer on the cheap.

My brewing setup is less than $100, I grind grains in a blender, and have gotten nothing but good feedback on my brews. I think it's kind of weird to mention how cheap your setup is and then to say people look down on you for that, when nobody mentioned it. It's a bit of a defeatist attitude.

If you need feedback, look into a local club or do a homebrew trade, great way to get feedback and try someone else's beer. Win win.


Ghetto and loving it.