What constitutes a good cold break?

[Phyrst]

I live in Texas, so it's typically 100 degrees outside when I brew and my ground water is probably 85 degrees. So when I drop my immersion chiller in there the best I can hope for is to get it down to 95 degrees or so.

I just moved from brewing in my kitchen to brewing out in the garage. My first batch has chill haze even though I used irish moss and cold crashed it. But, like I said, the best I could do was chill that wort down to about 85 degrees with the wort chiller that day. I put it in the refrigerator and brought it down to 72 before I pitched the yeast about 10 hours later.

So my question is, how do you know if you're getting a good cold break? Is there a certain temperature you need to get under? Is it a matter of how fast you get below 100 degrees or something? Do I need to chill it all the way down to pitching temperature rather quickly?

 

[tasq]

Hey there. First of all 72F is a pretty high pitch temp depending on the yeast you're using. Second, you can actually see cold break form in the fermenter as the beer is chilled. I don't think 85F water is even close to cold enough to form a good break, and I know for a fact you want to get below 80F ASAP.

Have you thought about a pre-chiller setup? If not, I'd suggest at least giving your beer an immediate ice bath after chilling instead of just sticking it in a fridge. That will chill the wort the rest of the way much faster.

Hope this helps.

 

[Phyrst]

Hey there. First of all 72F is a pretty high pitch temp depending on the yeast you're using. Second, you can actually see cold break form in the fermenter as the beer is chilled. I don't think 85F water is even close to cold enough to form a good break, and I know for a fact you want to get below 80F ASAP.

Have you thought about a pre-chiller setup? If not, I'd suggest at least giving your beer an immediate ice bath after chilling instead of just sticking it in a fridge. That will chill the wort the rest of the way much faster.

Hope this helps.

I actually did use a prechiller setup on this batch. I had a 25' immersion chiller in a bucket full of ice water and a 50' chiller in the wort. That's how I got it down to 85 F. Problem here is it's so hot you hit a wall. When it's 95 degrees outside the wort is absorbing heat from the ambient air as fast as the chiller is removing it.

But thanks for confirming that 85 F isn't cold enough. I'll have to figure something out. I'm doing full volume boils and my brew pot is too big to carry in the kitchen and drop it in the sink for an ice bath. I'll have to get a tub out in the garage or something to do that. Or I'll have to prechill my water and insulate my brew pot.

 

[jkendal]

I live in Texas, so it's typically 100 degrees outside when I brew and my ground water is probably 85 degrees. So when I drop my immersion chiller in there the best I can hope for is to get it down to 95 degrees or so.

I just moved from brewing in my kitchen to brewing out in the garage. My first batch has chill haze even though I used irish moss and cold crashed it. But, like I said, the best I could do was chill that wort down to about 85 degrees with the wort chiller that day. I put it in the refrigerator and brought it down to 72 before I pitched the yeast about 10 hours later.

So my question is, how do you know if you're getting a good cold break? Is there a certain temperature you need to get under? Is it a matter of how fast you get below 100 degrees or something? Do I need to chill it all the way down to pitching temperature rather quickly?

Is there any way you can give your kettle an ice bath? Maybe take it back inside the house and put it in the sink with some ice? Just a suggestion.

I live not too far north of you in Burton (near Brenham) and here's what I do, since I brew 10 gallon batches in a converted keg and taking into the house isn't an option... I got a second, smaller immersion chiller and connected the out hose of it to the in hose of my original one. I put the smaller one in a bucket of water while chilling. When the wort temp starts to slow down - around 100 or so - I add ice to the bucket and it shoots the temp down below 70 in no time. You'll start to see the wort coagulate into flaky like chunks (proteins, I think - someone correct me if that isn't right). I aerate and pitch close to my fermentation fridge temp (usually 65-68). Before I had my fridge, I used to put the fermenter in a tub of water with a t-shirt over the top to soak up the water. I would then take some empty plastic coke bottles, filled about 3/4 full of water and frozen the night before, and would put them in the tub to lower the temp that way. Living in a southern climate, you have to get creative to keep your beer cool...

 

[jkendal]

I actually did use a prechiller setup on this batch. I had a 25' immersion chiller in a bucket full of ice water and a 50' chiller in the wort. That's how I got it down to 85 F. Problem here is it's so hot you hit a wall. When it's 95 degrees outside the wort is absorbing heat from the ambient air as fast as the chiller is removing it.

But thanks for confirming that 85 F isn't cold enough. I'll have to figure something out. I'm doing full volume boils and my brew pot is too big to carry in the kitchen and drop it in the sink for an ice bath. I'll have to get a tub out in the garage or something to do that. Or I'll have to prechill my water and insulate my brew pot.

Sorry, I didn't see tasq's post (nor yours just before mine). You can still get cooler temps - just don't add the ice to your pre-chiller until the temp starts to slow down. You should be able to get below 70 this way.

 

[jkendal]

Sorry, I didn't see tasq's post. You can still get cooler temps - just don't add the ice to your pre-chiller until the temp starts to slow down. You should be able to get below 70 this way.

It may take a couple bags of ice, but I've done it in 100° weather.

 

[phoenixs4r]

I have to disagree with the posts above, but I do it reluctantly as I don't have any real explaination for you.

I typically only chill to 80*F, I can go lower, but it takes too much time and requires water that I don't care to waste (Even though all my cooling water goes back into my HLT/MT for cleaning later)

I typically pitch at 80*F and throw the fermentation vessel into my controlled freezer and by the time I see activity in the carboy the temperature is at my specified temperature threshold.

I rarely have any haze, and the last batch i did have haze i'm 90% sure I forgot the irish moss.

 

[Phyrst]

It may take a couple bags of ice, but I've done it in 100° weather.

Yeah, I'm sure it is. I'll just have to get creative. Going to have to insulate a lot of stuff to keep the ambient heat out. Maybe submerge my prechiller in a cooler instead of a bucket. Maybe get a submersible pump to recirculate the water. Fabricate some kind of blanket to put around the brew kettle. Or get a tub I can fill with ice water and drop the kettle in.

My overall question was whether cooling it just below 100 F was enough. The general consensus seems to be no.

 

[Sarge]

I use my ground water to cool it down to 100-110 degrees. After that I put a gallon of water and some ice in a 5 gallon bucket that has a valve. I use my pump to recirculate that through the immersion chiller back to the bucket. Occasionally I have to add more ice but I'm able to cool the wort to 60-62 degrees within 30 minutes.

I use my March pump but I read where others use a submersible pond pump that you can pickup at Lowes or Home Depot.

 

[jkendal]

I have to disagree with the posts above, but I do it reluctantly as I don't have any real explaination for you.

I typically only chill to 80*F, I can go lower, but it takes too much time and requires water that I don't care to waste (Even though all my cooling water goes back into my HLT/MT for cleaning later)

I typically pitch at 80*F and throw the fermentation vessel into my controlled freezer and by the time I see activity in the carboy the temperature is at my specified temperature threshold.

I rarely have any haze, and the last batch i did have haze i'm 90% sure I forgot the irish moss.

If it works for you, great.

 

[jkendal]

Yeah, I'm sure it is. I'll just have to get creative. Going to have to insulate a lot of stuff to keep the ambient heat out. Maybe submerge my prechiller in a cooler instead of a bucket. Maybe get a submersible pump to recirculate the water. Fabricate some kind of blanket to put around the brew kettle. Or get a tub I can fill with ice water and drop the kettle in.

My overall question was whether cooling it just below 100 F was enough. The general consensus seems to be no.

Insulating the prechiller and using a subpump are great ideas. I just use one of my old plastic fermenters. I think I'll insulate it - maybe save some ice that way. I'm using well water (down to 230 feet), too so that might make a difference - colder water than tap, maybe?

 

[JRems]

Man, I never have thought of the problems chilling in a hot climate. I have 50 degree well water year round. I just made a lager and was able to chill it down to 52 degrees with my counterflow chiller.

 

[tasq]

Man, I never have thought of the problems chilling in a hot climate. I have 50 degree well water year round. I just made a lager and was able to chill it down to 52 degrees with my counterflow chiller.

I hate you.

 

[crushingblackdoom]

I hate you.

Awesome.

 

[mjohnson]

Yeah, I'm sure it is. I'll just have to get creative. Going to have to insulate a lot of stuff to keep the ambient heat out. Maybe submerge my prechiller in a cooler instead of a bucket. Maybe get a submersible pump to recirculate the water. Fabricate some kind of blanket to put around the brew kettle. Or get a tub I can fill with ice water and drop the kettle in.

My overall question was whether cooling it just below 100 F was enough. The general consensus seems to be no.

This seems like one of those projects where you may be better off just throwing a little money at the problem. By the time you're done cobbling something together that works, you'll probably have spent money/time on a few things that didn't.

Due to your limitations, a counterflow or plate chiller would probably make your brew day much more enjoyable. I know I've seen a few people on here that have converted an immersion chiller to a counterflow. If money is tight, that might be something to look into. Running ice-water through that would work pretty great, I imagine.

 

[NewDecadeBrewery]

+1 on the submersible pond pump. I got mine from Lowes. After I chill through my immersion chiller as much as it will go with tap water, maybe around 75 degrees depending on time of year, I then hook up my pond pump to the same immersion chiller and pump ice cold water through it and I can get down to the low to mid 50s within twenty or so minutes.

The first tap water chilling water goes into the clothes washing machine a la Don Osborn's video. I find that after I fill my top loader washer its about time to hook up the pump and then that water gets recirculated from a bucket filled with ice and water. I usually chill to below pitching temp if possible because after I oxygenate or dump into fermenter or whatever it is that I am futzing with the wort enough to bring it up a few degrees.

Yes after all I have researched for ales or lagers the yeast ought to be pitched at fermenting temp and yes 85 degrees is too high. I don't know at what temperature cold break precipitates in wort but IMO it looks and behaves like miso soup. I believe the most rapid chilling to pitching temp is best but others claim success with no chill methods.

Definitely helps to have a pump in a bucket of ice water vs inline immersion chillers I think.

 

[tuscanknox]

yes, brewing outside in TX in the summer is an exercise in sweating...

Sarge got it right - you need a pump. I grabbed a basic submersible pump (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000X05G1A/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20) that I hook up to my 40' immersion chiller and then dunk it in a big bucket of ice water so the cold water is getting pumped directly through the chiller. works like a charm. just let the first minute or two of hot water run out before you start recirculating water into the cold bucket. that way you can chill fast AND save water.

 

[jkendal]

I don't know at what temperature cold break precipitates in wort but IMO it looks and behaves like miso soup.

Excellent comparison!

 

[BetterSense]

I'll never understand pre-chillers. It makes no sense to mix up a batch of ice water, and then instead of using the ice water to chill your wort, use another heat exchanger to attempt to cool down your tap water and then use your tap water to chill your wort. WTF?


I understand that to directly circulate the ice water, you need a pump, but to use the prechiller method, you need a pre-chiller, plus you waste tap water, so which is more expensive?

 

[jkendal]

I'll never understand pre-chillers. It makes no sense to mix up a batch of ice water, and then instead of using the ice water to chill your wort, use another heat exchanger to attempt to cool down your tap water and then use your tap water to chill your wort. WTF?


I understand that to directly circulate the ice water, you need a pump, but to use the prechiller method, you need a pre-chiller, plus you waste tap water, so which is more expensive?

Well, in my case, I got my second immersion chiller when my father got out of the hobby and gave me all of his equipment in return for free beer whenever he comes over, so it worked out well for both of us (better for me, actually, because he was already getting free beer whenever he came over ). I'm also on well water so I only pay for the cost of pumping it out of the ground - pennies on the dollar compared to tap water (plus it makes GREAT beer). AND I don't waste it - it goes back into the ground, so I really am recirculating my water when I chill my beer.

And remember, too, that the price of copper has skyrocketed in recent years - it used to be MUCH cheaper to get a second chiller than it was to buy a sub pump. The OP mentioned he had a prechiller like I do so I chimed in to help. Today, the sub pump would be more economical - the cheaper ones cost about as much as the copper to build a chiller, the difference being you would use less water.

 

[jkendal]

I'll never understand pre-chillers. It makes no sense to mix up a batch of ice water, and then instead of using the ice water to chill your wort, use another heat exchanger to attempt to cool down your tap water and then use your tap water to chill your wort. WTF?


I understand that to directly circulate the ice water, you need a pump, but to use the prechiller method, you need a pre-chiller, plus you waste tap water, so which is more expensive?

Well, in my case, I got my second immersion chiller when my father got out of the hobby and gave me all of his equipment in return for free beer whenever he comes over, so it worked out well for both of us (better for me, actually, because he was already getting free beer whenever he came over ). I'm also on well water so I only pay for the cost of pumping it out of the ground - pennies on the dollar compared to tap water (plus it makes GREAT beer). AND I don't waste it - it goes back into the ground, so I really am recirculating my water when I chill my beer.

And remember, too, that the price of copper has skyrocketed in recent years - it used to be MUCH cheaper to get a second chiller than it was to buy a sub pump. The OP mentioned he had a prechiller like I do so I chimed in to help. Today, the sub pump would be more economical - the cheaper ones cost about as much as the copper to build a chiller, the difference being you would use less water.



EDIT:
Sorry for the double post - my internet connection was giving me fits there for a few minutes. Can someone on staff remove this duplicate? Thanks in advance.

 

[Phyrst]

I'll never understand pre-chillers. It makes no sense to mix up a batch of ice water, and then instead of using the ice water to chill your wort, use another heat exchanger to attempt to cool down your tap water and then use your tap water to chill your wort. WTF?


I understand that to directly circulate the ice water, you need a pump, but to use the prechiller method, you need a pre-chiller, plus you waste tap water, so which is more expensive?

That's an excellent point. Putting my tap water through a prechiller submerged in an ice bath will probably only get my 85 degree tap water down to 65 F at best. Pumping ice water will put 32 F water through the chiller and provided I keep adding ice I can get it a lot lower a lot faster.