West Sixth start up brewery being sued by Magic Hat parent company over logo

[invivoSaccharomyces]

MH didn't make the issue public and they owe us/the public no proof

They sure as hell do if they want me to buy any of their beer again.

 

[mtnagel]

Well the trademark is actually for "#9", which makes it even more different than West 6th.

ETA: Found the trademark.

 

[PistolsAtDawn]

#9 tastes like hot rotting garbage. Their decision to sue another company doesn't change that fact. Who in their right mind would buy anything that they honestly thought resembled #9? That beer is the worst.

I agree. I can't believe it's even distributed. I'd drink a case of BMC before I'd even consider opening one more #9.

I likely would not have been talking about them unless it was regarding how much I truly disliked # 9 which does come up in social circles from time to time. It was one of the only three beers I've dumped down the sink in the last two years.

I almost asked the bartender to make sure it hadn't gone bad the one time I ordered one. Then I realized that they were marketing a crappy beer as some sort of novelty and it was supposed to be that way. Brilliant. More craft brewers should take note since apparently there is a market for garbage ales.

West 6th needs to find a better logo. Period.

I don't drink MH's products and that won't change. I won't drink W6 products because they are too darn lazy to create a logo that doesn't look somewhat like someone else's.

I'm not buying this BS of David vs Goliath. Create your own damn ORIGINAL logo, W6.

Quit cryin', grow a set, and change your logo.

MC

They did offer to change their logo. I don't think you read their responses. This is very clear: MH is bullying W6 in court because when you can't compete on product, you compete in the courtroom.

Here is my question. Whether or not the logos look similar the suit is on because MH claims West 6th has done irreparable harm to their brand. Now I am not making a stance for either side here at all. But let's zero in on the claim - irreparable harm. Prove that to me. Where is the harm? Prove to me it effected MH business. Show me actual real numbers. Proof is what I want and to date I have seen zero from MH. Now, if MH can produce the proof that is one thing. If they cannot - well, too bad. End the suit. If you are going to call me out in the public you BETTER come with proof of your claims. Of course, and as always, just my stupid humble opinion. I look forward to what others have to say.

Not a snowball's chance in Hell that W6 did "irreparable" harm to Magic Hat's brand. Magic Hat did that all by themselves.

 

[BrokenDog]

It seems like the vast majority of these posts are just forms of logical fallacies, whether you like the product or think it's garbage, that has no bearrings what-so-ever on whether they claim about intellecual property has any merit. After reading the whole thread I see that a good number of people, myself included, think that there is a definite similarity to the logo. While it may not be identical, as someone raised the point earlier, would it pass the moron test? Would someone with no knowledge of the beer other than seeing a logo while running into the store, looking for #9 grab the 6 by accident? I would bet it has happened at least a few times. While it would be hard to claim irreparable harm, if MH takes a panel of 100 of non-beer drinkers and asks them to identify the #9 and they can show that at least some of them picked the wrong beer they could make the arguement that that percent of the population equals the damage claim since every "confused customer" could be considered revue loss. Regardless, I wouldn't want to be West Sixth.

 

[PistolsAtDawn]

It seems like the vast majority of these posts are just forms of logical fallacies, whether you like the product or think it's garbage, that has no bearrings what-so-ever on whether they claim about intellecual property has any merit. After reading the whole thread I see that a good number of people, myself included, think that there is a definite similarity to the logo. While it may not be identical, as someone raised the point earlier, would it pass the moron test? Would someone with no knowledge of the beer other than seeing a logo while running into the store, looking for #9 grab the 6 by accident? I would bet it has happened at least a few times. While it would be hard to claim irreparable harm, if MH takes a panel of 100 of non-beer drinkers and asks them to identify the #9 and they can show that at least some of them picked the wrong beer they could make the arguement that that percent of the population equals the damage claim since every "confused customer" could be considered revue loss. Regardless, I wouldn't want to be West Sixth.

Assuming W6 did in good faith attempt to work this out with MH outside of the courtroom - which I believe is true - then you're missing a large point: There was NO reason for MH to file the lawsuit in the first place unless they're just trying to crush the competition with stifling legal fees. They were going to get what they wanted without a lawsuit, yet they filed anyway. And a frivolous one at that. If this proceeds to court, hopefully W6 can win legal fees from MH as well once the case is dismissed.

 

[Spartan1979]

I love the emotion that comes out when thing like this come up (especially on BeerAdvocate). Everyone thinks brewing should be one big happy community. These are businesses that have to protect their rights in the real world.

I'm not a fan of Magic Hat, but I think they have a legitimate point.

 

[terrapinj]

I don't think that people realize that MH and other companies have a duty to protect their trademarks

the issue with west sixth may have very little to do with concern about west sixth (I doubt they are that concerned that a little regional brewery is going to take much of their business) and could be more geared towards protecting their trademark for the future. #9 is their most popular and most widely distributed beer afaik

if they don't stand up to a potential infringement now they could risk losing their trademark in the future if someone else attempted to copy them

 

[BrokenDog]

Assuming W6 did in good faith attempt to work this out with MH outside of the courtroom - which I believe is true - then you're missing a large point: There was NO reason for MH to file the lawsuit in the first place unless they're just trying to crush the competition with stifling legal fees. They were going to get what they wanted without a lawsuit, yet they filed anyway. And a frivolous one at that. If this proceeds to court, hopefully W6 can win legal fees from MH as well once the case is dismissed.

Why is their no reason to file, they believe there is an infringement and they want to defend their IP. Like Spartan said, this is business, not two buddies trying to work out a problem that they need to talk over. Before the logo was brought to MH's attention I doubt anyone had ever even heard of W6 there so I don't they they are trying to crush them or even care what happens to them one way or another since W6 is pretty small patatoes to a brand the size of MH.

 

[PistolsAtDawn]

Why is their no reason to file, they believe there is an infringement and they want to defend their IP. Like Spartan said, this is business, not two buddies trying to work out a problem that they need to talk over. Before the logo was brought to MH's attention I doubt anyone had ever even heard of W6 there so I don't they they are trying to crush them or even care what happens to them one way or another since W6 is pretty small patatoes to a brand the size of MH.

Because they offered to change the logo without taking it to court. Working it out that way is still Magic Hat defending their intellectual property. It's a dick move to disregard that amicable offer and sue W6 anyway, especially over "irreparable harm" because - as you just pointed out - W6 is so small that nobody is likely to have heard of them outside of their city and therefore it's not even possible that they could have caused said damages.

Legal bullying. Plain and obvious.

 

[TyTanium]

This is why I brew my own. Less drama.

 

[mtnagel]

It seems like the vast majority of these posts are just forms of logical fallacies, whether you like the product or think it's garbage, that has no bearrings what-so-ever on whether they claim about intellecual property has any merit. After reading the whole thread I see that a good number of people, myself included, think that there is a definite similarity to the logo. While it may not be identical, as someone raised the point earlier, would it pass the moron test? Would someone with no knowledge of the beer other than seeing a logo while running into the store, looking for #9 grab the 6 by accident? I would bet it has happened at least a few times. While it would be hard to claim irreparable harm, if MH takes a panel of 100 of non-beer drinkers and asks them to identify the #9 and they can show that at least some of them picked the wrong beer they could make the arguement that that percent of the population equals the damage claim since every "confused customer" could be considered revue loss. Regardless, I wouldn't want to be West Sixth.

I just don't get this. If I told some random non-craft beer drinking joe-schmo to get me a beer called Magic Hat #9 and they came back with a beer that was called West 6th, I'd ask if they were standing on their head when they picked it out. How do these people that confuse 9 with 6's live their lives? If I say I live at 900 9th St, do they go to 600 6th St?

 

[Stauffbier]

would it pass the moron test? Would someone with no knowledge of the beer other than seeing a logo while running into the store, looking for #9 grab the 6 by accident? I would bet it has happened at least a few times..

I'm thinking a "moron" is likely not going to be making many logical decisions in life regardless of logos and labels.

Have you ever been confused by the number 6 and thought it was a 9? Me either.

I'm thinking most people probably read the label as far as brand names are concerned. Both cans pictured in post 77 clearly show the brewery name over the logo. Even if you did just "run in and grab" without reading the brewery name I still don't think you would get the numbers 6 and 9 mixed up.

 

[bobdole]

While both sides have valid points and arguments, I think that Kegworks.com had a great post, as seen here, and surmised it best with the following:

"Now, we totally agree that the West Sixth logo does look eerily similar to Magic Hat’s – and we totally understand that they have a brand to protect. What we don’t get is why this has turned into such a sad, mean situation.

Particularly when it seems like Magic Hat is being a tad bit hypocritical. Here’s a compilation of Magic Hat logos and label designs that we put together to make our point.

While West Sixth’s logo is definitely similar to theirs, it’s abundantly clear that many of their own labels have been very obviously influenced by the work of others."


All creative work is influenced and changed by the work done before it. Just some food for thought....

 

[bovineblitz]

Because they offered to change the logo without taking it to court. Working it out that way is still Magic Hat defending their intellectual property. It's a dick move to disregard that amicable offer and sue W6 anyway, especially over "irreparable harm" because - as you just pointed out - W6 is so small that nobody is likely to have heard of them outside of their city and therefore it's not even possible that they could have caused said damages.

Legal bullying. Plain and obvious.

The other article states it the other way around. W6 said they were going to make adjustments but instead launched a social media campaign portraying themselves as victims. Magic Hat initiated the exchange amicably and it went on that way for a while until that.

 

[m_stodd]

I should stop being amazed at how quick people are to pick up their pitchforks and read the article on the way to the rally, or skip the article entirely.

For those hating on MH for this, I suppose it would be fine if I have a beer that had a logo of an encircled 69 with a star in the middle? Surely nobody would be confused who brewed that if it were placed by MH and West 6th. And since we have a third beer, I could come up with a slightly different orange/black/silver color scheme for the can also.

They look pretty similar to me:

http://consumerist.com/2013/05/22/magic-hat-sues-kentucky-brewer-over-its-logo/

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Well, I think the problem is the lawsuit ends up insulting consumers.

I myself as a consumer of craft beer, if I walked into a place, and Magic Hat #9 and West 6th sitting on the shelf next to each other, both 6 packs, for 6 10 dollars (I'm making a dollar amount up), I would just pick one or the other depending on style and what I found on a reputable beer rating website.

If we're going to bring the "Moron Test" into this discussion, we would have to use a "moron craft brew drinker test". If Joe Moron Schmoe walked into a liqour store to buy beer, according to market share, 94 times out 100 he would buy a BMC. The other 6 times he buy's a craft brew, or a faux-craft brew (unless the faux-craft brews like Blue Moon are considered part of the BMC's market share).

It would be on Magic Hat's head to proove that more often than not Joe Moron Schmoe would walk in, and intend to purchase MH #9, and buy West 6th instead. I find it insulting because I would walk in and purchase the beer I think sounded better from reviews of other beer drinkers, and if the beer was a style I know I really liked. This is just as ridiculous as Apple "trademarking" a rectangle with rounded corners. Most consumers are morons, we might drink lots of beer, but I liked to think as home brewers we're a little more discerning in our beer selection and are not confused by a logo.

 

[m_stodd]

Well, I think the problem is the lawsuit ends up insulting consumers.

I myself as a consumer of craft beer, if I walked into a place, and Magic Hat #9 and West 6th sitting on the shelf next to each other, both 6 packs, for 6 10 dollars (I'm making a dollar amount up), I would just pick one or the other depending on style and what I found on a reputable beer rating website.

If we're going to bring the "Moron Test" into this discussion, we would have to use a "moron craft brew drinker test". If Joe Moron Schmoe walked into a liqour store to buy beer, according to market share, 94 times out 100 he would buy a BMC. The other 6 times he buy's a craft brew, or a faux-craft brew (unless the faux-craft brews like Blue Moon are considered part of the BMC's market share).

It would be on Magic Hat's head to proove that more often than not Joe Moron Schmoe would walk in, and intend to purchase MH #9, and buy West 6th instead. I find it insulting because I would walk in and purchase the beer I think sounded better from reviews of other beer drinkers, and if the beer was a style I know I really liked. This is just as ridiculous as Apple "trademarking" a rectangle with rounded corners. Most consumers are morons, we might drink lots of beer, but I liked to think as home brewers we're a little more discerning in our beer selection and are not confused by a logo.

No, even if the brand confusion ends up helping them, if they don't defend their trademarks now, they're going to have trouble making a case defending them in the future.

Judge person: "Well back when W6 ripped off your design and your sales went up, you didn't complain. Why should you be able to sue company XXX now?"

 

[PistolsAtDawn]

The other article states it the other way around. W6 said they were going to make adjustments but instead launched a social media campaign portraying themselves as victims. Magic Hat initiated the exchange amicably and it went on that way for a while until that.

You are correct! I flipped the events a bit in my head.

But regardless, they did try to settle this outside of court and were met with silence.

"...they’re asking for not only damages but also all our profits up until this point (little do they know that well, as a startup company, there wasn’t any, oops!)."

ALL of their profits? Won't try to resolve this outside of court? Yep, sounds like they're not really trying to get the logo changed to me.

The good thing for W6 is that the burden of proof is on Magic Hat. And since it's obvious that their claim is without merit, this won't go far. It just sucks to have to pony up the money to defend your company from BS lawsuits like this. I wish we had a loser-pays court system.

 

[drainbamage]

The latest from W6's Facebook page, FWIW:

On Tuesday night, Cerveceria Costa Rica (owners of Magic Hat IP) posted 4 conditions to outline a way to settle our differences. On Wednesday morning, we accepted all 4 conditions and showed them 4 different new options for our logo. All they had to do was select one of them.

But it’s been more than 24 hours, and we still haven’t had a response to our offer.

In that time, Magic Hat has accused us of lying, damaging their brand, and then asked us to stop talking publically about the dispute. Of course, that last part is the one that really matters to them.

Our campaign is winning. We’ve got their attention. Nearly 15,000 people have joined our campaign to tell Magic Hat “No More”. If you haven’t yet signed it, please go here and do it right now.

We have to keep the pressure on. Can you help by doing these 4 things today?

1) Share a link to http://www.nomoremagichat.com/ on your Facebook page and Twitter feed. This is critical to our success. Even if you’ve done it before.
2) Send a quick email to 3 of your friends asking them to sign the petition. The email can be really simple – just say: This is an important issue to me and I’d really appreciate your support.
3) Post something to the Magic Hat Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/magichatbrewing letting them know what you think about their corporate bullying.
4) If you know any friends who are reporters, can you send them a quick note suggesting that they might like to write about this frivolous lawsuit?

If you can help us by doing those 4 things today, I know we’ll be successful.

Thank you again for joining us in telling Magic Hat “No More”!

More info at: http://www.westsixth.com/still-waiting-for-a-response/

Personally, I'm still tending towards W6's side in this, but their responses are definitely blurring the line between "drawing attention to keep their problem from being swept under the rug" and "manufacturing a crisis/smear campaign for publicity."

 

[bovineblitz]

You are correct! I flipped the events a bit in my head.

But regardless, they did try to settle this outside of court and were met with silence.

"...they’re asking for not only damages but also all our profits up until this point (little do they know that well, as a startup company, there wasn’t any, oops!)."

ALL of their profits? Won't try to resolve this outside of court? Yep, sounds like they're not really trying to get the logo changed to me.

The good thing for W6 is that the burden of proof is on Magic Hat. And since it's obvious that their claim is without merit, this won't go far. It just sucks to have to pony up the money to defend your company from BS lawsuits like this. I wish we had a loser-pays court system.

Well that's essentially just hearsay. According to the Magic Hat side W6 acted like petty children and gave them the run around.

The claim is likely NOT without merit, especially if distributors expressed concern independently. Look at those two tap handles a couple posts up, they're pretty similar from a reasonable distance. Even if W6 didn't intentionally use a similar design if it's deemed to be similar then they have a problem.

I feel like you didn't read all the articles if you think that Magic Hat didn't try to resolve it out of court.

 

[bovineblitz]

The latest from W6's Facebook page, FWIW:



Personally, I'm still tending towards W6's side in this, but their responses are definitely blurring the line between "drawing attention to keep their problem from being swept under the rug" and "manufacturing a crisis/smear campaign for publicity."

Grimy. Trying to rally public opinion rather than actually be correct and justified.

It's kinda comical that they think signatures and random people's opinions actually matter when the **** hits the fan.

 

[gpack]

Magic hat sued Georgetown too over the name "9 pound hammer" years ago.

00100.

 

[Spartan1979]

Well, I think the problem is the lawsuit ends up insulting consumers.

Or the problem is it's too easy to lose later if you don't follow the rules now. If you don't like the trademark laws, just lobby to get them changed. MH is working within the system as it sits today.

As far as insulting consumers, is this worse than some of the dumb warnings that are put on labels?

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

No, even if the brand confusion ends up helping them, if they don't defend their trademarks now, they're going to have trouble making a case defending them in the future.

Judge person: "Well back when W6 ripped off your design and your sales went up, you didn't complain. Why should you be able to sue company XXX now?"

But for this entire argument to hold water we have to make a critical assumption. Would Joe Moron Schmoe walk into a liqour store, and grab the W6th beer instead of the MH9? Maybe, if he was drunk or in a really huge hurry (blue and green laber vs. orange and red?).

So, sure I could see someone getting confused, maybe, in extreme cases. Would it happen in normal circumstances? Rarely. Maybe someone in a bar might say "OH I want a pint from that tap" and point at the W6th, but someone that really likes MH9 really order their beer like that? "I want the magic hat number 9 please." If the bartender pours the W6th, who cares, its going to go into the machine as a MH9 sale (if their registers are set up like).

I think people picking up the pitchforks and torches in this case is pretty reasonable. It's insulting to us, I don't have access to W6th, I could go and buy MH9. I'm not going to buy MH9 now, because according to them, I can't tell the difference between the number 6 in a circle, and a number 9 in a swirly circle.

You don't see New Glarus going after New Belgium because they both have "New" in their company name... If New Glarus did sue New Belgium to change their name, I would stop drinking New Glarus immediately because it would be ridiculous, insulting, and on the same level as what MH is doing.

Or the problem is it's too easy to lose later if you don't follow the rules now. If you don't like the trademark laws, just lobby to get them changed. MH is working within the system as it sits today.

As far as insulting consumers, is this worse than some of the dumb warnings that are put on labels?

True, they are working within the current system. Will lobbying change that? Probably not because it protects large corporations (including small ones at times), you can't lobby for common sense.

And as for the warning labels, thats to protect the company from dumb consumers. Like I just bought a toaster, says on the warning label, "Do not place in Oven"... I find that informative since I've never thought of placing my toaster, inside of an oven, a toaster oven one might call it.

Edit: I'll qualify everything I'm saying. Yes, Magic Hat is perfectly within their rights to sue W6th. Are they complete buttholes for doing it? In my opinion yes. Are people justified for getting angry about it and thinking its completely ridiculous? See above.

 

[terrapinj]

the litmus test about mistakenly buying one product instead of the other is only 1 method of determining infringement

a customer drawing an association or assumption that the products are related or from the same company is also a factor

they are both in the exact same industry and now in the same markets doesn't help the case of W6th nor does the fact that MH has preceded them in the industry by 20 years

In deciding whether consumers are likely to be confused, the courts will typically look to a number of factors, including: (1) the strength of the mark; (2) the proximity of the goods; (3) the similarity of the marks; (4) evidence of actual confusion; (5) the similarity of marketing channels used; (6) the degree of caution exercised by the typical purchaser; (7) the defendant's intent

 

[brianhewitt]

Gotta side with the little guy on this one. Sure, if you were color blind, stone-cold drunk, and had fallen half way outta the booth at the local water hole and saw a West Six logo upside down you might be confused. But then, you might have also gotten a phone number from a dude in drag moments before, so there's probably not much that isn't confusing.

When you're getting lawyered to death by a heavy hitter, and you don't have any real money, popular opinion/publicity is the only way you can realistically fight back. If left to email, phone calls and meetings with lawyers, West Six has no chance of any compromise on the part of Magic Hat, no matter how nicely worded their public statements are. With public support, they have a shot at a scenario other than just throwing their logo away and starting from scratch. (Probably not a very good shot even so.)

 

[tagz]

the litmus test about mistakenly buying one product instead of the other is only 1 method of determining infringement

a customer drawing an association or assumption that the products are related or from the same company is also a factor

they are both in the exact same industry and now in the same markets doesn't help the case of w6th nor does the fact that mh has preceded them in the industry by 20 years

+1

 

[drainbamage]

But for this entire argument to hold water we have to make a critical assumption. Would Joe Moron Schmoe walk into a liqour store, and grab the W6th beer instead of the MH9? Maybe, if he was drunk or in a really huge hurry (blue and green laber vs. orange and red?).

Breaking News: the one guy that accidentally bought a West Sixth IPA instead of a Magic Hat #9 is suing HBT for libel on account of being repeatedly referred to as a moron

 

[hillybilly]

Breaking News: the one guy that accidentally bought a West Sixth IPA instead of a Magic Hat #9 is suing HBT for libel on account of being repeatedly referred to as a moron

correction drunken moron

 

[forstmeister]

This thread is now functionally retarded. Is anyone here a patent lawyer? Has anyone here studied patent law for more than the 5 minutes it took to google "patent law"? If not, then this is all a moot point. Everybody was equally pitchforky when Bells sent a cease and desist letter to northern brewer a while back.

A judge will settle this. That is all that matters. If I ever see West 6th on the shelves I will avoid it since they cried on Facebook about this and tried to smear another brewery's name in the mud. Yes, Magic Hat is a bigger company, but they still have the right and the DUTY to defend their product trademark!