Weihenstephan...back to the drawing board!

[Baron von BeeGee]

Then he'll be one of these:

 

[Walker]

Then he'll be one of these:

damnit.. is there supposed to be an image there? I have noticed recently that I am NOT seeing a lot of pics that people are posting.

-walker

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Well, I've got an image...the 'big' Imperial Walker from ESB, i.e., the last SW movie that didn't suck.

 

[Walker]

Well, I've got an image...the 'big' Imperial Walker from ESB, i.e., the last SW movie that didn't suck.

ah, the AT-AT Walker. I was going to chose one of those for my avatar, but in my mind, those are just called at-at's, and the two-legged AT-ST Walkers are known as Imperial Walkers.

Ok.. I'm a dork.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Yep.

(I love the irony of that, given the fact that Kai and I are discussing what pH best frees ferulic acid...)

 

[SkewedBrewing]

Whatever, Star Wars is sweet... Except for Episope I... and II and maybe III a little bit...

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Weihenstephaner Hefeweissbier

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

15-A German Wheat and Rye Beer, Weizen/Weissbier

Min OG: 1.044 Max OG: 1.052
Min IBU: 8 Max IBU: 15
Min Clr: 2 Max Clr: 8 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 11.50
Anticipated OG: 1.054 Plato: 13.31
Anticipated SRM: 3.5
Anticipated IBU: 12.5
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 20.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 6.88 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.043 SG 10.74 Plato

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Rager

Additional Utilization Used For Plug Hops: 2 %
Additional Utilization Used For Pellet Hops: 10 %


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
47.8 5.50 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
47.8 5.50 lbs. Wheat Malt Germany 1.039 2
4.3 0.50 lbs. Rice Hulls 1.000 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
17.00 g. Hallertau Hersbrucker Pellet 4.75 12.5 60 min.


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3068 Weihenstephan Weizen


Water Profile
-------------

Profile: Raleigh on Neuse
Profile known for: Terrible Creek Ales!

Calcium(Ca): 6.6 ppm
Magnesium(Mg): 2.8 ppm
Sodium(Na): 22.3 ppm
Sulfate(SO4): 34.7 ppm
Chloride(Cl): 15.4 ppm
biCarbonate(HCO3): 32.3 ppm

pH: 8.28


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Name: Hefeweizen Single Decoction

Total Grain Lbs: 11.00
Total Water Qts: 11.00 - Before Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 2.75 - Before Additional Infusions

Tun Thermal Mass: 0.00
Grain Temp: 75.00 F


Step Rest Start Stop Heat Infuse Infuse Infuse
Step Name Time Time Temp Temp Type Temp Amount Ratio
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acid Rest 3 20 99 99 Infuse 103 11.00 1.00
Protein Rest 2 30 122 122 Infuse 210 3.45 1.31
Maltose Rest 2 90 147 147 Infuse 210 6.61 1.91
Saccharification R 70 10 160 160 Decoc 212 5.34 0.65 (Decoc Thickness)
Mash Out 5 10 170 170 Decoc 210 5.00 1.50 (Decoc Thickness)


Total Water Qts: 21.06 - After Additional Infusions
Total Water Gal: 5.26 - After Additional Infusions
Total Mash Volume Gal: 6.14 - After Additional Infusions

 

[El Pistolero]

the last SW movie that didn't suck.

Star Wars was the last Star Wars movie that didn't suck. I just don't know what Lucas' problem is...he can't seem to make a sequel that doesn't suck...tho I guess Temple of Doom wasn't bad.

 

[Kaiser]

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
47.8 5.50 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
47.8 5.50 lbs. Wheat Malt Germany 1.039 2
4.3 0.50 lbs. Rice Hulls 1.000 0

Don't you hate that the rice rulls are included in the percentages of the grains in the grist?
Beersmith is doing the same to me.

Kai

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Don't you hate that the rice rulls are included in the percentages of the grains in the grist?
Beersmith is doing the same to me.

Kai

Clearly a bug. I would add them in the extras section, but I don't always look at that. Not that I'd forget them, anyways.

 

[Kaiser]

Clearly a bug. I would add them in the extras section, but I don't always look at that. Not that I'd forget them, anyways.

When do you add them to the mash? I figure that an addition at mash-out would be the best.

Kai

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I go ahead and add them at dough-in so they are mixed in well. The way wheat can set up like concrete leads me to believe it could require some reasonable stirring to get them mixed in at mash-out, though if you're decocting to mash-out temp that may be academic.

 

[Walker]

I guess Temple of Doom wasn't bad.

You can't be serious?! That's the only one of the Indy trilogy that I will NOT watch. I have the boxed DVD set, and I haven't even taken the shrink wrap off T.o.D.

-walker

 

[Kaiser]

Well, my results are in. Yesterday I compared the Hefe that I made according to this thread to Weihenstephan Hefe Weissbier and this is what I found:

aroma: both are pretty close. Mine has a little more of the phenolic character with a little more funk going on in the background. I believe that this can be attributed to fact that mine was much younger and I couldn't keep the fermentation temps as constant as I would have liked them to be. A few times it went above 70F, where more esters are produced.

color: Color is almost a match. The Weihenstephan is a tad darker with a little more redness in its hue. I believe that that can be fixed by boiling the 1st decoction for 20 instead of 10 min. Yes, some Munich or Melanodin could do the same, but why bother, if I decoct this beer anyway

carbonation: The Weihenstephan has much more. I was shooting for about 7g CO2/L (Volumes ??). Next time I will shoot for 8-9g CO2/L. I just have to make sure I keep enough Speise or add some more DME.

head retention: Mine is actually pretty comparable. If I use a slow pour, even the Weihenstephan will not have a stable head. You need to shake up the last 1-2oz in the bottle to get the yeast and set this foam on top of the beer. The foam will be fairly stable, but I notices that mine leaves powdery looking residue on the walls of the glass. I assume that is is the yeast and I may actually try bottling with lager yeast next time. Since I always have some lager yeast at hand and I'm using Kraeusen to prime this beer, it would not be an addition of complexity for me.

taste: Mine has a more acidic taste than the Weihenstephan. And this is the only thing that really bothers me on this batch. Othewise it would have been perfect for the 1st Hefe. I hope I can blame this on the fact that I added 1.75 oz of acid malt after the Ferulic acid rest as I was convinced that the mash needed it. When I checked the PH (with paper) during the acid rest it seemed a little on the high side. I prepared for adding 3.5 oz of acid malt. But at the end of the acid rest the PH looked normal (I guess that's why it is called acid rest) but I added 1.75 oz of the acid malt anyway. I'm not sure if this made a difference in the taste. But I assume that with an infection, it would get more sour over time. The Weihenstephan also has a small hint of maltiness that I couldn't detect as much in mine. I hope that the longer decoction will take care of this as well

FG: mine is at 2.5*P (+/- 0.25) and Weihenstephan is at 2.5* (+/- 0.25). I'm pretty proud of this result and hope that I can repeat this attenuation.

Kai

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

taste: Mine has a more acidic taste than the Weihenstephan. And this is the only thing that really bothers me on this batch. Othewise it would have been perfect for the 1st Hefe. I hope I can blame this on the fact that I added 1.75 oz of acid malt after the Ferulic acid rest as I was convinced that the mash needed it.

I would almost bet adding the acid malt was unnecessary given the acid rest. I didn't add any acid malt to my 2.0, and it is significantly more acidic/sour than 1.0.

 

[Kaiser]

I would almost bet adding the acid malt was unnecessary given the acid rest. I didn't add any acid malt to my 2.0, and it is significantly more acidic/sour than 1.0.

Yes that's what I figured too. I definately was overeager in adding it in this case .

But the the ferulic acid rest should have brought the mash to the regular mash PH. This is what I saw when testing with the paper. And most of this acid should have been converted to 4VG by the yeast. I'm not sure if that would get rid of the acidity as well, or if there is another acid that is procuced as a byproduct of this conversion.

Kai

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Definitely getting in the deep end of the pool for me, but I only know that ferulic acid is a precursor for 4VG...does that mean it is automatically converted to 4VG? Your theory of other types of acids being created sounds reasonable, as well.

As far as the test strips, I tried one during the acid mash and only concluded that I still can't read them. I might try the aquarium test solution if I can remember to buy some.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Okay guys, I made the Baron's wheat beer and this is how it went...

My acid rest came in a little high at 113F instead of 111F, But I'm not worried about that at all. I held it for 30min as per instructions.
The dreaded protien rest (Kaiser ) was perfect at 122F for 40 min, during which time I pulled my first decoction. I pulled a 4 quart thickie and boiled it for 35 minutes, and added it back to hit my 153F sacc. rest. the only problem was, my temp stabilized at 134F after adding the decoction back into the mash. WTF? I thought. I ran back and checked my notes and it turns out I should have pulled an 8 quart thickie. Oh well, I got it there after two more thin decoc's and mashed for 30 minutes. After that, I did a successful conversion test and pulled another thin decoc and mashed out.
Sparging was a bit of PITA having 50% wheat in the mash. I was unable to locate any rice hulls, and under advisement decided to go without. The runoff never really stopped but it was really slow for the first batch, the second was nice and speedy.
On to the boil and everything else was according to plan. I built a new CFC, and it worked awesome (my old one was 1/4" and took 2 hours to drain the kettle!, the new one is 3/8") I was 2 points low on my OG, but I haven't noticed any tears coming from my eyes so that must be okay too.
I pitched a wyeast 3333 1 quart starter and it's in the books now!

Special thanks to BvBG and my apprentice, BigT.

PS I don't think I'll be doing (as it turned out) quadruple decoctions every time, but I'm certainly not afraid of them!

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Wicked. I think that's still within acid rest limits, but I'd have to check. You should be getting some pretty nice aromas from the airlock soon. Now, book a ticket for a month from now so we can do a side-by-side comparison of the three wheats.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

My primary is currently at 63F, which is on the bottom edge of the wy3333 strain's limit. How will that affect the ester production? Should I raise it up a bit?

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

In my experience with 3068 (haven't tried 3333 yet), ester production will be quite low to nil, but you'll get some phenols (cloves, spices). I'd shoot for the upper 60's if it's possible because you'll get more esters and phenols, but not too much of the esters (banana-y). But the 3333 may behave differently than the 3068.

 

[cweston]

My primary is currently at 63F, which is on the bottom edge of the wy3333 strain's limit. How will that affect the ester production? Should I raise it up a bit?

I did a hefe with 3333, at about 67-69, and I think it came out a little too estery. (I would describe the esters from this strain as somewhat medicinal in flavor). I think your range should be OK, if a little slow.

3333 does not produce much banana or clove flavor.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

(I would describe the esters from this strain as somewhat medicinal in flavor).

That sounds more phenolic to me which could hopefully be balanced with more esters. However, checking the web it seems that 3333 has a significantly different profile than the 3068 or other Hefe yeasts.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Thanks guys, I think I'll leave it where were it is for now and see what it does as changing it now won't tell me anything in the final product. I can always change it for the next one.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Well, I got Hefe2.0 bottled tonight after two weeks in the secondary. I had intended to bottle after one week, but got lazy. It actually settled a bit in the second week, as well, so it's probably a good thing overall.

Sampling of this one makes me happy...tastes like I expect it to at this point. Nice phenolic character, good acidity, color looks good, too, but we'll see what it looks like in a glass in a few weeks. Hopefully it carbs soon!

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

I racked mine tonight after two weeks in pirmary. It tastes awesome! Unfortunately, it's going to have to sit in secondary for 5 weeks. Do you guts think this prolonged period will screw-up the flavor? I should be able to hold it around 55-60F for the entire secondary...

 

[Dude]

I racked mine tonight after two weeks in pirmary. It tastes awesome! Unfortunately, it's going to have to sit in secondary for 5 weeks. Do you guts think this prolonged period will screw-up the flavor? I should be able to hold it around 55-60F for the entire secondary...

I think it will only get better, provided you didn't rack over too much yeast with it. If you have a ton of yeast with it the prolonged exposure might create some autolysis but I'm betting that after 5 weeks, that beer is going to be more than you ever expected. :rockin:

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Bitchin, yo.

:rockin:

PS Dude, we should get our avatars together sometime...

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Believe it or not, my Hefe1.0 spent almost 5 weeks in the secondary and in a 45-50F garage, at that. It was fine other than the fact I had overhopped it which had nothing to do with the secondary. It never completely cleared, either, which just goes to show how persistent those haze-inducing wheat proteins are.

The only thing I would suggest is seeing if you can detect any reduction in the phenolic/estery character by the time you bottle. Mainly because I'm curious. I don't think you'll notice anything.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

My Hefe 2.0 is a success by my calculations! Cracked a few bottles with the Kaiser the other night and a few more tonight and I'm very happy with it. I need to do a side-by-side comparison with an actual Weihenstephan, however. The overly bitter taste is gone and I have the phenolic/estery character I want. I think the acid rest made a difference, but who knows.

[hidden message]Norah Jones, if you see this, you left your sweater at my house.[/hidden message]