Watery tasting cider help

[cryssunshine]

I just did my tertiary rack on a cider from home juiced apples that I started on 10/31/13. The initial reading was 1.066.

gallons worth of gala juiced apples (maybe not the best apples to use?, but I got them for free)
1 cup of brown sugar
1 cup of white sugar
1/2 tsp of pectic enzyme
1 campden tablet

While I was trying to kill off the wild yeast, it actually fermented on its own anyways.. so I let it because it was a vigorous fermentation!
(I even added more pectic and campden to stop it on 11/06, but it continued)
This is when I did my primary rack

I racked again on 11/11 due to the 2" of sediment on the bottom and added 1 bottle of water and a Redds Apple Cider to fill carboy up.

It is now at .996

It has a gorgeous color and great clarity, but its lacking flavor. I have never backsweetened anything before and am unsure if this is the right thing to do. If it is, can I backsweeten with stevia? I'd rather not deal with carbonated cider because I only have wine bottles, but I could leave it in the gallon carboy.

 

[cryssunshine]

OFF TOPIC:
Also, I don't use a fermenting bucket- I just use my gallon carboy, but I place the airlocks starting on day one.... is this bad/wrong?

 

[insanim8er]

First pectin enzyme is for pectin and campden tabs won't stop fermentation.

To get a good cider, you should use a variety of bitter and sweet apples... So that's probably the reason. Also the yeast you used can contribute. Adding water doesn't help either.

But mainly acid levels that are low makes cider seem watery.

You also have very a dry cider... Dry like if a champagne yeast was used. You can let it age for a long time and get some essence back.

 

[cryssunshine]

Should I back sweeten with stevia?
What should I use to stop fermentation (I just received another batch of apples tonight that we are going to juice and get going for more cider)?
I have another batch of cider going from store bought cider with Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast- should I try out another type of yeast? What type?

 

[insanim8er]

Should I back sweeten with stevia?
What should I use to stop fermentation (I just received another batch of apples tonight that we are going to juice and get going for more cider)?
I have another batch of cider going from store bought cider with Red Star Pasteur Champagne yeast- should I try out another type of yeast? What type?

Champagne yeast dry it out and generally requires a lot of time to condition. There are ale yeasts you can use to leave sweetness and make for less conditioning times... There's a post all about cider yeasts where they experimented with a bunch. I think Nottingham came out the winner. It's a dry ale yeast.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/results-juice-yeast-sugar-experiments-83060/

Redstar is not what I'd use...

You don't really stop fermentation. You let it ferment out the inhibit the yeast (keep them from reproducing) with potassium sorbate along with campden tabs. Then back sweeten. I don't see why you can't use whatever sweetener you want. Just be sure to boil it well and cool before adding and be careful not to contaminate the cider.

 

[cryssunshine]

Should I add some acid? I think I have citric on hand.

 

[insanim8er]

Should I add some acid? I think I have citric on hand.

I would...

Add a little a little at a time... Tea might help to add some tannin if need be too.

 

[cryssunshine]

Champagne yeast dry it out and generally requires a lot of time to condition. There are ale yeasts you can use to leave sweetness and make for less conditioning times... There's a post all about cider yeasts where they experimented with a bunch. I think Nottingham came out the winner. It's a dry ale yeast.


Redstar is not what I'd use...

This is what was recommended to me at my home brew store

 

[insanim8er]

This is what was recommended to me at my home brew store

Ya... They're not always correct. You might like it, but it's not what I'd use based off my experience with yeasts and cider.

 

[cryssunshine]

You don't really stop fermentation. You let it ferment out the inhibit the yeast (keep them from reproducing) with potassium sorbate along with campden tabs. Then back sweeten. I don't see why you can't use whatever sweetener you want. Just be sure to boil it well and cool before adding and be careful not to contaminate the cider.

I meant to stop the wild fermentation as this batch was made with wild yeast (I didn't add any yeast of my own because the fermentation took off).

 

[cryssunshine]

How much citric acid should I start off with? Its a gallon batch.

 

[insanim8er]

I meant to stop the wild fermentation as this batch was made with wild yeast (I didn't add any yeast of my own because the fermentation took off).

Right... You generally crush the campden tab, nutrients, pectin enzyme into the juice and let it sit 24hr then add your yeast.

The campden us suppose to "pasteurize" the juice in a sense and inhibit wild yeast...

 

[insanim8er]

How much citric acid should I start off with? Its a gallon batch.

Generally you pull a measured sample and add a measured sample of whatever it is you're adding...then taste then adjust. Once you have the mount figured out, you scale it to your full volume and add it.

So it always varies. Plus there are different acids you can add or you can use blends... You might want very acidic or not... It'll never be the same for everyone. Take good notes to be able to replicate your results.

 

[cryssunshine]

Right... You generally crush the campden tab, nutrients, pectin enzyme into the juice and let it sit 24hr then add your yeast.

The campden us suppose to "pasteurize" the juice in a sense and inhibit wild yeast...

This is what I did, yet the wild yeast took off! I racked it a week later and added more PE and another crushed campden, but it kept going... so I let it. I never put yeast in this batch.

 

[insanim8er]

This is what I did, yet the wild yeast took off! I racked it a week later and added more PE and another crushed campden, but it kept going... so I let it. I never put yeast in this batch.

It can happen... But that's how you do that.

Also you don't want to rack off the lees early. 1 week is not enough time.

 

[cryssunshine]

Im taste testing it next to an angry orchard.... they must add apple flavoring? Its so appley tasting. Mine is not.
Is this due to the lack of variety I used or should I just buy a flavoring to add to it?
(I am tipsy from it already... I guess its at a 9% ABV! hahaa)

 

[cryssunshine]

It can happen... But that's how you do that.

Also you don't want to rack off the lees early. 1 week is not enough time.

Oh, thats what I've read.. well, I'm not using a fermentation bucket- I start off with it in the carboy and I rack it 5-7 days in.... like what Ive read from letting it ferment in a bucket and putting it in a carboy.

 

[insanim8er]

Im taste testing it next to an angry orchard.... they must add apple flavoring? Its so appley tasting. Mine is not.
Is this due to the lack of variety I used or should I just buy a flavoring to add to it?
(I am tipsy from it already... I guess its at a 9% ABV! hahaa)

A tell tail sight of knowing if flavor aids are added, look at the label.

It'll say something to the affect of, "with natural flavors." It may be worded different too... But that means flavor aids were added.

 

[cryssunshine]

I just measured hydrometer reading of my store bought cider in which I used the red star champagne yeast.... it started at 1.055 and is now at 1.000.

This one also lacks flavor. Im assuming from the yeast I used?!? What am I doing wrong? What can I use and how can I get a flavorful cider (whether sweet or tart)?

 

[insanim8er]

I just measured hydrometer reading of my store bought cider in which I used the red star champagne yeast.... it started at 1.055 and is now at 1.000.

This one also lacks flavor. Im assuming from the yeast I used?!? What am I doing wrong? What can I use and how can I get a flavorful cider (whether sweet or tart)?

Age it for a 6mo to a year. I did an apple wine that was 12.5% tasted like crap up until the 9mo to a year mark.

1.000 is dry too... You probably want to use an ale yeast and back sweeten. Add acid... Experiment.

 

[cervid]

Not sure where you live, but it's colder than a freezer here.. I would jack it.

All the sugar is gone and it might be hard to call it watered down, but I'm sure most or all of that sweet apple flavor is gone.

You added pectin, so the lack of cider apples should be offset a bit. Not only are cider apples more sour, these small apples (any fruit that's 'small') will have a proportionately larger core and therefore more Pectin.

Based on you number's you're close to 8%. I'd either jack it and make some hooch or backsweeten it with frozen concentrated AJ and bottle it. Still, force carbed, bottle carbed.. whatever. It's all tasty

 

[cervid]

Use Nottingham yeast next time. Not sure how much campden you added, but make sure it's the right amount. Campden will kill Lacto, which is what is most predominantly on apple skins. Campden shrinks Brett, but won't 'kill' it or brewer's yeast. Use sorbate for that, but at the end of fermentation as it stays in the liquid...

I stand by what I said.. Jack it in your freezer once or twice and you'll like the flavor I think and it will definitely be stronger. Gala apples, not so good.. Crab apples, closer.

 

[cryssunshine]

Not sure where you live, but it's colder than a freezer here.. I would jack it.

All the sugar is gone and it might be hard to call it watered down, but I'm sure most or all of that sweet apple flavor is gone.

You added pectin, so the lack of cider apples should be offset a bit. Not only are cider apples more sour, these small apples (any fruit that's 'small') will have a proportionately larger core and therefore more Pectin.

Based on you number's you're close to 8%. I'd either jack it and make some hooch or backsweeten it with frozen concentrated AJ and bottle it. Still, force carbed, bottle carbed.. whatever. It's all tasty

I live in Texas. I stays around 70 degrees in my house. When you say "jack it" do you mean raise the temperature?

 

[cryssunshine]

Use Nottingham yeast next time. Not sure how much campden you added, but make sure it's the right amount. Campden will kill Lacto, which is what is most predominantly on apple skins. Campden shrinks Brett, but won't 'kill' it or brewer's yeast. Use sorbate for that, but at the end of fermentation as it stays in the liquid...

I stand by what I said.. Jack it in your freezer once or twice and you'll like the flavor I think and it will definitely be stronger. Gala apples, not so good.. Crab apples, closer.

I will check with my brew store for Nottingham yeast- thanks!
I added one crushed tab and a week later another (gallon carboy).
I just received a free bushel (144 apples) of ambrosia apples- wonder how these will turn out.

 

[cervid]

Jacking it makes applejack. You freeze concentrate it like an eisbock. Just like anything brewing related, you can come up with your own way to do it. But, if it's just watery, and not off tasting i would put a quart of it in a mason jar and freeze it for a few hours. Check it, and scrape off the layer of ice or crystals. Don't let it freeze solid.

You can put that ice in another mason jar and measure it, do the math in your concentration, or guess. You can get it stronger than you want though, Stu test a quart jars worth nd see!

On phone.. Sorry if spelling I'd off.

 

[MindenMan]

In my experience mason jars are hazardous when full of liquid and placed into a freezer. Here is the easy way: pour into a 2 liter bottle, freeze for 2 or so days, turn upside down into a glass or cup, and the liquor will drip out leaving the ice and water behind.

 

[cervid]

I don't fully tighten the caps, guests i didn't mention that. If you just leave it in the freezer for 2 days you'll have a slushy, or it'll be frozen solid. You don't want that. The jar won't break if it doesn't freeze solid and/or isn't air tight.

You should be skimming the ice off as you go.

Besides, we're trying to fix a watered down cider here, NOT make apple jack. I'm assuming here, but what my advice is doing is concentrating his cider say from 4% to 6 or so ABV. I'm on my phone and don't have a chart, but freezer temps, if fully jacked at that temp, will get you closer to what... 15 or 18%?? Something like that? I know it takes almost -30 for 60 proof, but the scale of ABV per temp ramps up slowly at first from 32 fahrenheit to 0 or so, then ramps up pretty quick if I recall correctly..

 

[cryssunshine]

I poured some in a pitcher and placed it in the freezer for around 4 hours. I too it out and more than half had froze/ slushied. I removed the he frozen parts. It taste a little more alcoholic, but still lacks flavor. I haven't measured with hydrometer yet though.

 

[cervid]

Well, freezing any further will only make it hotter. You can rinse and repeat that process until you get no ice formation with a little for fun. Just so you can taste some real apple jack.

I don't recall if you mentioned how low you got it. If you get cider under 1.010, according to most palates, it really starts to loose the apple flavor and might be perceived as being watered down even though that term might be a misnomer and it is actually decent strength ABV wise. If it completely finishes it can taste like a weak apple wine, especially if you didn't augment the cider with any other fermentables before fermentation. I could see myself calling a 5% cider at 1.000 watered down.

Hell, I have a cider now I did with an additional 5 lbs of honey to 6gllons Motts AJ and it finished out to like 9% ABV because I had to go out of town and let it go too long and I wouldn't say it's watered down necessarily, but it wasn't what I wanted as far as mouthfeel especially. It tastes like a weak wine and I'm kind of doing the same thing you're doing now in a week or two. Jacking some, backsweetening some, experimenting with some, etc. My thoughts are, if I don't like the brew I made, I might as well experiment with it, with modifying/fixing it rather than toss it out or drink it and dislike it the whole time. At least the money from the unsatisfying batch went towards my experience, I guess. I will say, I really like the ciders I and others have done that have come from real, fresh, apple cider more than the AJ batches.

At this point.. I would freeze the rest like you did this stuff, then cut it slowly with some frozen apple juice or that cheap filtered cider if you can find it concentrated. Use the concentrated, say a half a package at a time, until you like it. This will get the apple flavor you want, and get it back down to a lower ABV and it won't be so hot. Alternatively, you might be able to find an apple or apple pie imitation flavoring or concentrate and add a little at a time. I would consider first taking the pitcher you froze and splitting it up and trying the above techniques before freezing the rest. If you don't like any of those options, go crazy and put a shot of Hot Damn in a glass and see what that does for you!

I haven't done that with the flavoring (but I would if I felt I needed to in order to save a batch I didn't like), I know some who have, and some commercial breweries do things like that to their ciders. I forget what the term is for ciders that have nothing like that, it might be 'no artificial colors, flavors, preservatives'. Not all say that..

Some people back sweeten 5 gallons with like 3 of those frozen juices. That's a little sweet for me, but at least you'll have it if you need it and it's pretty cheap.. Especially if you can save your whole batch. I forget what your batch size was..

Good luck! Post what you do so I can reference it, considering I'm doing similar things to my own current batch. I have like 5 or 6 ideas I'm fleshing out this week.
Regardless, if you don't like it as it is, try to salvage the batch and when you do like it drink it up. I think the oxygenation issue might be overblown, but all of this meddling may have an effect on it's flavor profile as it ages.

Oh and, you can drink that ice. It has a little alcohol in it still! It's pretty interesting to see what that ice tastes like when it's your first time doing this.

 

[cervid]

Oh an, as for the other suggestions, I have tasted other brewers ciders who added teas to the secondary (especially when from bottled juice and not a good mix of pressed apples, or a apple cider from a local orchard with no sorbates) and it can be really good. Now, I forget.. You'd have to goolge this.. But, my recollection is that the preferred method for adding tea was to put the tea bag in cold distilled or pre sterilized water for a while, maybe overnight even, rather than brewing hot like you normally would and I think it had to do with other volatile compounds besides tannins coming out with the heat.

I have absolute faith that those suggestions will help your cider out. My suggestions, after I went back and looked at your recipe now, were based on the adding of the water and beer, as well as the final gravity.

 

[cervid]

I will check with my brew store for Nottingham yeast- thanks!
I added one crushed tab and a week later another (gallon carboy).
I just received a free bushel (144 apples) of ambrosia apples- wonder how these will turn out.

Sorry for double posting, actually triple.. I hate that. I just had surgery so am 1 out of it and 2 laid up..

Those apples are low in acid. If you are going to try to press only them, add the acid and tannins suggested before fermentation. Press them, add the campden tabs and let it sit with a paper towel over the mouth of the carboy for a day or 2 so the sulfur can dissipate. Then, add the acid, tannins, and pectic enzyme. Am I missing an additive? You may have to research some about that..

 

[MindenMan]

Okay, I must be missing something here... if we freeze the hard cider and remove the ice, then in theory we are concentrating what isn't part of the ice, and if we freeze the hard cider, and pour out what isn't ice, what is the difference? If we are talking the legality of the whole thing, and supposedly and the law says one is okay, and what is not? No offense to any of the other posters, but who gives a shi*, really? I am never going to make enough concentrate by one method or another to sell and get the ABC wanting to come visit me for producing some kind of hard liquor that is being sold w/o the IRS getting their piece of the pie. Speaking of pie, okay, not pie really, but the "watered down" flavor that occurs when the fermented cider has used up all the available sugar to make alcohol. 1) back sweeten with a sugar alcohol (Splenda, etc.) to taste, bottle and forget about it. 2) Back sweeten with FAJC, and pasteurize before bottle bombs start exploding, and 3) Buy a bottle of apricot flavoring ( I like Brew Craft) and add it slowly to the mix before bottling, but after you add your sweetener of your choice. I was blown away at how little apricot essence is required to really round out the cider. It is almost imperceptible that the flavor you taste isn't apple. I am speaking of less than one ounce of apricot for 5 gallons of product. Add your sweetener first, and then add the apricot to taste. If you add the sweetener second, the apricot flavor will most likely be way too much, both before and after aging. Granted if you want the apricot flavor to lead, well then there you have it.
I haven't read anybody else adding apricot to apple to improve the flavor, but I am sure I am not the first.