Water Profile
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I live on the Texas Gulf coast and have been a brewer for 20 years. I never had a problem with my beers of any style until making the move to all grain. It was then that I ran into the problems with my local water. High residual alkalinity made brewing lighter style beers nearly impossible. I tried to work around the local water chemistry but nothing seemed to help. So I started using distilled water and built my own water depending on what style I was brewing. Using the water calculator here: http://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/ I simply start with the Source minerals at zero and add in minerals and salts to match whatever water chemistry I set under the target profile.
On a side note, an aquaintance who is opeing a microbrewery locally, is using the local water and only filtering it for organics. He is formulating his recipes to work around the characteristics that make the local water lousy for brewing. His beers are not bad and are popular with the locals, he has a large prochial following. That said, I taste the same flavors in his wheat beer, and pale ales that I encountered in mine. The hops had a very harsh edge in the finish, and there was a bit more astringency than I liked. Since building my own waters, I have been able to make beers more to my liking. Yes, it added about $10 to the cost of my beer, purchasing distilled water but is worth it.
On a side note, an aquaintance who is opeing a microbrewery locally, is using the local water and only filtering it for organics. He is formulating his recipes to work around the characteristics that make the local water lousy for brewing. His beers are not bad and are popular with the locals, he has a large prochial following. That said, I taste the same flavors in his wheat beer, and pale ales that I encountered in mine. The hops had a very harsh edge in the finish, and there was a bit more astringency than I liked. Since building my own waters, I have been able to make beers more to my liking. Yes, it added about $10 to the cost of my beer, purchasing distilled water but is worth it.
remilard
Well-Known Member
Ales tend to drop more. I believe this is simply because at the warmer fermentation temperature they are more metabolically active and produce more organic acids.
Are there changes in brewing practices that can utilize existing water profiles to get the desired brew profiles without starting with distilled water.
For a home brewer to be adding this much cost to a batch of beer is a matter personal choice, I would not think this could be an option for a commercial entity. I understand that some breweries will stick to certain styles based on their water profile and I imagine an answer to this could get very involved.
From ajdelange
With the help and direction I have gotten here I have started to play with different spreadsheets and calculations to get a desired calculated mash PH and mineral profile. If I were to try to modify my process to utilize what I have instead of making additions - What would/ could I do? I am in a different situation than KPatton as I have 'soft' water and I know that I am asking questions that are (far) above my brewing needs but I am interested to know.
Brewers should note that water hardness is less an issue of concern. Its alkalinity that should be the primary concern. Hardness follows that.
But as AJ mentions, softer water generally makes a more pleasing taste than hard water. There is a limit to softness though. We now know that better beer is made with calcium content in the 40 to 50 ppm range which is termed Moderately Hard.
But as AJ mentions, softer water generally makes a more pleasing taste than hard water. There is a limit to softness though. We now know that better beer is made with calcium content in the 40 to 50 ppm range which is termed Moderately Hard.
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Absolutely. You give me a good lab report on a source water and a good ion profile for the desired brewing water and I can come up with additions that will give a darn close match. But the additions will have to include RO water if any ion in the target is at a lower level than it is in the source (exception: calcium, magnesium and bicarbonate can be removed by other techniques but then you need a new analysis to determine how effective those techniques were - dilution with RO is much simpler) and carbon dioxide if any adjustment in alkalinity level is desired. So now you have water identical to what the brewers of Helles in Munich had. Do you know how they treated it if at all? IOW it's not enough to reproduce the water of the city in which the beer was invented, you also must know how to use it. In most cases with a carbonaceous water the first step in brewing is to decarbonate it. There is little point in increasing alkalinity (messing with CO2 sparging) only to turn around and have to undo it (decarbonation by boiling or lime treatment).
I mentioned "good" reports and good profiles. There are lots of bad reports out there and even more bad profiles. Bad here means that the charges on the cations and anions don't balance. In a water report on a particular sample (such as a Wards report) lab errors result in small imbalances which can be ignored. More troublesome in this regard are municipal suppliers reports in which you are almost never given the results of an individual report but rather the averaged (over weeks, months or years) values. Average values do not necessarily balance - in fact they probably don't. The widely published profiles are, in general, atrocious in this regard.
To figure all this out there are, of course, spreadsheets which perform the intricate bookkeeping and calculations required. Most completely ignore the question of balance and if fed an unbalanced profile result in something that can send you off into left field. The new Bru'n water spreadsheet does calculate the balance in the report you enter and in addition has a library of balanced target profiles.
After 20 years of fiddling with designing water I have decided/discovered that it is, in general, too much trouble though still fun to play with. A simpler approach is to start with low ion water and add what you want skipping bicarbonate/carbonate except in cases where mash pH is demonstrably too low as determined by accurate (no pH test strips) measurement.
It absolutely is an option and cagy commercial brewers use it. The economies of scale reduce the operating cost of producing a gallon of RO water to pennies. There are, of course, capital costs but these would be modest compared to, say, the cost of obtaining enough kegs to support off premises draft sales.
The obvious answer is to stick to Bohemian pilsners but I'd say be bold - try an IPA with soft water and a stout and .... You may be pleasantly surprised by the results. It probably really makes more sense to start with the Primer guidelines and reduce salt additions as you brew different batches of the same beer. IOW, a Burton style ale would initially be done with extra gypsum and some calcium chloride and the result would be a beer that nominally resembles a traditional Burton ale (if you taste the stuff that is exported these days you know that it's not brewed with water as gypseous as the traditional). If you brew it with softer water it will be mellower, sweeter, smoother and probably considered better by most drinkers but you might not like it and you might get dinged in a competition for not cleaving to the style guidelines.
As for the process proper i.e. things like differing fermentation temperature, different mashing temperature etc. - no, there is nothing you can do there to make a soft water Burton Ale come out like a traditional Burton Ale. One thing that may be new to you is the use of acid or acid malt to set mash pH. This is critically important. Purchase and use of a pH meter is a very important part of all this.
Given what I said about soft water and Martin's comment in #36 I guess I should point out that when I advocate starting with "soft" water I mean soft (DI, RO) water. But the guidelines in the Primer advocate adding some calcium chloride to this soft water. I suspect the chloride of being of as much benefit through organoleptic taste enhancement as the calcium is through improved yeast performance, break formation.... That said I'll note that AFAIK, Pilsner Urquell and Budvar are brewed with very soft (but not RO/DI soft) water. I supplement my RO water with CaCl2 when I brew Boh. Pils and, as I have just found out that I am using anhydrous calcium chloride (having assumed for years that it was the dihydrate) I am using more than I intended. The beer is good, though.
I am not asking if you can take soft or hard water and match the profile from some region. I'm asking - for a given water are there brew process alterations that would allow you to get the proper PH in the mash without additions? The answer may be - NO- but that's the question.
If yes, something simple like - for a PH that's 5.45 instead of the brewers desired 5.38 he/she may do a longer or shorter mash at higher or lower temps with more or less steps. This is really just a general PH brew science question. I suspect the answer may be that there are subtle things that can be done but for the heavy lifting additions are required. It's the subtleties that get you!
If yes, something simple like - for a PH that's 5.45 instead of the brewers desired 5.38 he/she may do a longer or shorter mash at higher or lower temps with more or less steps. This is really just a general PH brew science question. I suspect the answer may be that there are subtle things that can be done but for the heavy lifting additions are required. It's the subtleties that get you!
In carbonaceous water which contains calcium (water with temporary hardness) boiling removes both hardness and alkalinity down to about 1 mEq/L. Other than that there is no process modification that has much effect. Each decoction may drop the mash pH a bit if no sauermalz is used.
Ahoffy
Active Member
I received my water Analysis from Ward Labs for my water. I been playing with Bru'n Water and EZ water spreadsheet, but still confussed. I am looking for help for Pale ales and IPAs. My water is
PH 7.9,
Na 8
CA 18
Mg 2
Toal Harrdness, (CaCO3) 53
Nitrate, NO3 0.9
Bicabonate 53
Sulfate (SO4) 9
Chioride 8
Bicarbonate 53
Total Akalinity 44
Any help would greatly be apreaciated for any additivates that i would need. The only thing I do now is is run my water through a Activated carbon to remove chlorine.
PH 7.9,
Na 8
CA 18
Mg 2
Toal Harrdness, (CaCO3) 53
Nitrate, NO3 0.9
Bicabonate 53
Sulfate (SO4) 9
Chioride 8
Bicarbonate 53
Total Akalinity 44
Any help would greatly be apreaciated for any additivates that i would need. The only thing I do now is is run my water through a Activated carbon to remove chlorine.
Looks like a good starting point for almost any brewing. The alkalinity might need to be increased for some beers, but otherwise the alkalinity is quite managable via acidification. I find that bringing my sulfate level to around 300 ppm aids in enhancing a dry finish for my PA's and IPA's. Your taste preference would have to be refined through your own brewing and tasting experience.
Take your numbers and plug them in here: http://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/
Then see if you can get your local water into one of the sweet spots for the style of beer you are brewing. I live on the gulf coast with lots of residual alkalinity in the ground water. I gave up and moved to distilled water. I simply add in the minerals using epsom salts, salt, gypsum, calcium carbonate and bicarbonate. This tool lets you pick water chemistry from a world reknown brewing location and "make" it yourself. Sometimes you just cannot get around bad water.
Yours looks pretty good. I ran the numbers in the tool and for 5 gallons found that 3 grams or 0.74 teaspoon of gypsum (Calcium sulphate) puts you in the sweet spot for highly bitter pales. Estimated pH of 5.79 and alkalinity of -5.44. An addition of 2 grams of calcium chloride (.59 teaspoon) will drop it from highly bitter to just bitter, lessening the accentuation of the hop bitterness. Or alternatively, you can add 2 grams of deionized table salt, I use sea salt, to raise the CL content to hit the same range as using the calcium chloride. The salt increases the apparent mouth feel, or fullness of the beer on the tongue. the NaCl disassociates more readily in solution so you are likely to get more real use out of it than the calcuim chloride in solution.
Then see if you can get your local water into one of the sweet spots for the style of beer you are brewing. I live on the gulf coast with lots of residual alkalinity in the ground water. I gave up and moved to distilled water. I simply add in the minerals using epsom salts, salt, gypsum, calcium carbonate and bicarbonate. This tool lets you pick water chemistry from a world reknown brewing location and "make" it yourself. Sometimes you just cannot get around bad water.
Yours looks pretty good. I ran the numbers in the tool and for 5 gallons found that 3 grams or 0.74 teaspoon of gypsum (Calcium sulphate) puts you in the sweet spot for highly bitter pales. Estimated pH of 5.79 and alkalinity of -5.44. An addition of 2 grams of calcium chloride (.59 teaspoon) will drop it from highly bitter to just bitter, lessening the accentuation of the hop bitterness. Or alternatively, you can add 2 grams of deionized table salt, I use sea salt, to raise the CL content to hit the same range as using the calcium chloride. The salt increases the apparent mouth feel, or fullness of the beer on the tongue. the NaCl disassociates more readily in solution so you are likely to get more real use out of it than the calcuim chloride in solution.
Not sure if this will help but i found a page of water recipes for particular styles which are based off using distilled water. go to the bottom of the page
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/wchmprimer.html
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/wchmprimer.html
Be very careful with that recommendation. The water's from those 'sweet spots' may not be all that sweet if the brewer doesn't know how to adjust and correct that 'sweet' water the way the old brewers of that area did. Don't assume that historic water profiles make better beer. I suggest that reading a bit more on the Water Knowledge page of the Bru'n Water website would be a way to understand why those water profiles may not be ideal for your brewing.
Not so. Both are completely dissociated. Sodium chloride is much more soluble that calcium chloride but you will not approach the solubility limits of either. Thus calcium chloride is every bit as effective as sodium chloride in terms of getting chloride into solution and has the added benefit of getting more calcium into the beer. Additional sodium is at best a 'don't care' and at worst a flavor spoiler (unless you want something like a Gose in which case have at it).
Ahoffy
Active Member
Thanks!! For the Replys
