Water profile impact on extraction efficiency?

[Kampenken]

Hi all,

I've been all grain brewing for about 2yrs now and have been immersed in all the trappings of this hobby- I/C, grain mill, conical, fermentation chamber, stir plate, O2 setup, etc.. but haven't ventured much into water chemistry.. yet! I've even opened up my mill settings to avoid tannin extraction allowing my brewhouse efficiency (as measured through Brewer's Friend recipe calculator) to fall from 80 to 70%. I'm quite fine with that and typically hit my OG sometimes spot on, otherwise within 1-2 pts, so I feel well dialed in. My brother who has similar setup as mine, is always low, and we've been using a brewhouse eff of ~55% to help hit his OG. Wow that's low to me! Well today I brewed with him (and our other brother) at his house, and like him, I missed my OG by ~11pts (60 v target of 71). I brewed on all my own equipment, so the only variable, I was hitting my mash temps, wort collection, boil off etc, was his water.

So, my question. Can water profile impact extraction efficiency? In my case it sure seems so, as I never miss by this level. We likely will brew again at either my house or our other brother's house in the next few months, so will have yet another source to validate today's results. However, in the meantime, I'm wondering, and I haven't seen on web searches, if water profile can influence extraction efficiency. It sure seems to have today!

Any thoughts?? I'd appreciate any and all help. I know there are lot more out there with water chemistry knowledge. I'm a finance guy, this chemistry stuff makes my head spin!

Cheers,
Ken

 

[Subdivisions]

Go look into Bru'n Water here : https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

Read the whole thing and mess around with the spreadsheet. You'll get the idea after a while. It's not a simple thing to learn but you'll get some insight initially then have an A-HA moment at some point.

As far as water chemistry effecting efficiency, yes, it will help it out especially if you have very hard water. Your mash PH needs to be below 6. For the time being he could try using store bought 'spring water'. I've had good results with it.

I noticed you said you lessened the gap on your grain mill. Tannin extraction from finely milled grains has been proven (mostly by people who brew in a bag) to be pretty much horse sh*t. Tighten your mill back up and you'll get better extraction.

 

[doug293cz]

Yes, your water can affect extraction efficiency, primarily the conversion component of extraction. The most important factor is the pH of the mash, which will be considerably different than the pH of the water, due to the buffering power of the grains. The most important water parameter that affects mash pH is the water's alkalinity. If it's too high, you may need to add acid to your mash to keep the pH in range. If it's too low, you might need to add something like baking soda.

There is an optimal mash pH for conversion efficiency (ref: http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Starch_Conversion#pH_and_brewing_water.) If your mash pH is too far away from the optimal value, then the conversion rate will slow down, and the max achievable conversion may also decrease.

Look into the BrunWater page referenced in a earlier post.

Brew on

 

[newnick]

If your milling your own grains maybe his scale is off.

 

[Kampenken]

Thanks for the replies!

Subdivison- That looks like a good read and I will indeed read it over to get the points, and get to that ah ha moment! Will be doing this before my next brew so I appreciate you passing it on. Yeah I've wondered if the tannins is like HSA...

Doug- thanks for your link too, could it be that the ah ha came on the 2nd paragraph already! (suboptimal pH results in lower extract production and less fermentable wort). That would make a lot of sense- I will go down that route and have my brother check his pH of the mash (and I guess prior if it helps to know where the mash may end up) next time he brews, as well as read the rest.

Newnick- Great thought too, but I should add that I measured and milled my grains before I went to brew at his place. Literally the only variable was his water.

Time to invest some effort in learning water chemistry, I've let that slide for too long possibly.

 

[newnick]

I always try to start out with the simple things when trouble shooting anything. I came up short a few times on the numbers and it was because I was using to much water to start with. (BIAB) Once I realized that, things have turned around and now I overshoot the numbers consistantly. I've just started looking into adjusting the water and made the initial attempt over the weekend, all that chemistry stuff blows my mind but I'm going to stick with it. In the effort to keep things simple have you thought about inviting your brother over to your place to brew and see if his numbers go up?

 

[Kampenken]

Yes, the 3 of us plan to rotate brew days a few times a year. So either next one will be at my other brother's house or mine. To make it even more interesting, the other brother (I'm kinda liking writing that, but let's call him Old Bro) has a well and a RO system! And I don't think he measures much in ways of efficiency, his last brew (with water he brought to Middle Bro's house this past Sunday) was a DME brew. His OG was high (90 or so, but I think he undershot his water amounts). Both Old Bro & Middle Bro aren't as anal with measurements and records as me, and I'm likely not nearly as others! I plan to do an Iodine test, as will middle Bro, while learning more about the water too.

Yup I also rule out the simple things. It was perplexing every time we'd talk about our brews and he was undershooting. I had him adjusting (based on Brewer's Friend calculator) where we'd load in the recipe with the recipe's conv % and then scale to his lower pct to improve his hitting OGs. Got close with that. You might want to likewise adjust your recipe via BF recipe calculator's scale option, if you don't want to overshoot OG. Easy peasy.

Brewing together was interesting too. We saw how each handles things, and I found middle Bro's (low eff guy) mash was thicker than I thought he was doing. Like mashed potatoes, thick ones, not thin. So told him he should thin it out more, which he did but late in the mash. This is probably worth a point or two, not sure how much, but a guess.

 

[newnick]

I'm content getting higher numbers than what the recipe calls for, the preboil number is usually what the starting number should be. I find it amazing that people try to hit a number that is the third number after a decimal point with so many variables involved. Maybe one of these days I'll experiment and try to hit a number but for right now I'm shooting for consistantcy and beer that tastes good.

 

[Subdivisions]

and I found middle Bro's (low eff guy) mash was thicker than I thought he was doing. Like mashed potatoes, thick ones, not thin. So told him he should thin it out more, which he did but late in the mash. This is probably worth a point or two, not sure how much, but a guess.

Ya, a thinner mash helps rinse the sugars out of the grains more effectively. This could be more of a problem than the water if his mash is under 1.25 quarts/lb.

Also, at the end of the mash stir till your arms are tired then stir for 5 more minutes.