Water Modification Videos, TH's Spreadsheet

[Bobby_M]

I'd recommend grabbing the updated version of TH's spreadsheet. I think you'll find that you don't really need an RA of 493 for ANY beer.

 

[ajdelange]

Going to brew a BIG RIS to age for 5 years. I want to get this one as spot on as possible....CaCO3: 8.3 / 4.36

These are conflicting statements. Adding chalk to the brew water for almost any beer will ruin it. In the first place it will cause the mash pH to come out higher than you want and in the second will give a, well, chalky taste to the beer.

The recipe SRM=54.

I thought the word was out that the correlation between color and mineral content was too weak to base water chemistry decisions upon. Guess not.

Here are my current numbers:

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
CaCO3: 11

You are blessed with beautiful water. Don't ruin it. All you need to do to it is add a bit of calcium chloride (1 tsp per 5 gal) and, if you particularly want the effects of sulfate, approximately an equal amount of that. Unless you are using an inordinate amount of roast grains your pH should fall into just the right range. You should, however, check mash pH and if it is too low that is the time and place to add some chalk. But do it in small amounts, stir it in thoroughly and give it some time to react before checking pH. If using strips (not recommended) any pH of 4.9 and up should be OK.

Seems like a lot to add!

12.6 grams of chalk in 6 gal of beer? You bet it is!

 

[Daddymem]

I thought the word was out that the correlation between color and mineral content was too weak to base water chemistry decisions upon. Guess not.

Nope, first I've heard of it. I downloaded the original sheet. modified it to suit my needs, and haven't poked back in here very much. Like I said, listening to Jamil and Palmer and they just went through matching the residual alkalinity to your SRM, and when I saw what I had to do to get to my SRM, I figured I better check in, amounts didn't seem right.

You are blessed with beautiful water. Don't ruin it.

Not entirely true, it makes an IPA that is just meh. Altbier comes out awesome though!

I'll get the new spreadsheet and play around with that, I see some big differences already.

 

[ajdelange]

Not entirely true, it makes an IPA that is just meh.

Don't want to hijack the thread but wonder if you would be willing to comment on that. Are the hops just not there enough or do the flavors just seem dull or both or something else?

If I were to do an IPA with your water I'd add calcium chloride to it and use acid in the mash to be sure pH was correct. And if I thought the hops wer blah I'd throw some gypsum in there too. When I said it was beautiful I didn't mean to imply that you could just brew anything with it without some adjustment.

 

[Daddymem]

Wow, big differences in the spreadsheet. Kudos! Still frustrated trying to balance things out. Everyone says "your water is perfect"...punch in my water, pH is 4.9, Ca, Mg, SO4 are all really low, and chloride to sulfate ratio is "Very Malty". I don't notice any problems with my mashes, I do BIAB and get mid to high 80s for efficiency, but I do notice the flat hop flavor.

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
HCO3: 11 *

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6
RO or distilled %: 0%

Total Grain (lb): 23
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0.5
Roasted Grain: 3.5
Beer Color (SRM): 54

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 2
CaCl2: 0
MgSO4: 2.25
NaHCO3: 12
NaCl: 1
CaCO3: 3
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 75
Mg: 10
Na: 168
Cl: 35
SO4: 92
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.38

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 390
RA: 330
Estimated pH: 5.19


*error in the spreadsheet, should be CaC03

RA is still really high! Exactly what I did: I first adjusted with Chalk to 3 grams and got pH of 4.95. Then I raised the pH with 12 grams of baking soda to get pH of 5.21. Then I added gypsum at 2 grams to the mash and 1.1 to the boil to raise calcium to 57 ppm. Then I added epsom salt at 2.25 grams to the mash and 1.2 grams to the boil to raise mg to 10. This gets me to a chloride sulfate ratio of 0.09. I then add salt at 1 gram to the mash and 0.5 grams to the boil to give me a 0.38 for chloride sulfate ratio.

Would those amounts of any of these salts be detrimental to the beer? Also, CL/SO4 at 0.09 before the salt addition, is that too low (should I add the salt to raise it a little like I did)? My mash pH is just out of range with all of these additions. It seems like a lot of stuff to do to what I think is great water to drink.

Thanks for your patience all, I'm an engineer, not a scientist.

 

[Daddymem]

Don't want to hijack the thread but wonder if you would be willing to comment on that. Are the hops just not there enough or do the flavors just seem dull or both or something else?

If I were to do an IPA with your water I'd add calcium chloride to it and use acid in the mash to be sure pH was correct. And if I thought the hops wer blah I'd throw some gypsum in there too. When I said it was beautiful I didn't mean to imply that you could just brew anything with it without some adjustment.

Not entirely scientific, but a pretty good anectodal experience. My homebrew club brewed up a wicked IPA extract large batch at a home that is connected to city water. The boil was 10 gallons and we diluted to 20 gallons total (4 brewers, each got 2.5 gallons and diluted with 2.5 gallons of city water from the tap). We did no adjustments. That beer is amazing, right up there with the craft brewer's beers. We all used different yeasts so each beer is different, but the base was still noticeable, nice malty backbone and bright hops. Then we did the exact same recipe at my house without adjusting water again and all different yeasts. Each beer had this flat hops taste to them. The bitterness was there but was very... muddy (best term I could figure out). I've done a few IPAs and hoppy APAs and get a similar muddy taste to them as well. I've since adjusted my CL/SO4 ratio and matched SRM (neglected all other mineral levels) and have gotten good, bright hops characters.

 

[remilard]

I would suggest that irrational brewers measure pH and ask themselves why they are mashing at pH above 6.

I do think you are rational since you are using a poor model way out in the tail where it performs extremely poorly and questioning the obviously ridiculous results.

Search for AJ Delange's posts here and elsewhere if you want to know quite a bit, or read New Brewing Lager Beer (or almost any book other than Palmer's that discusses water) if you want to know only what you need to know.

 

[ajdelange]

"Muddy" is a fine way of describing it. As hinted in my last post I think your problems are 2 fold - mash pH too high and no sulfate snap in the hops. The sulfate problem you have apparently solved, presumably by adding gypsum. Now solve the pH problem by adding some lactic acid or sauermalz and you will get "brighter" flavors. Skip the chalk addition. You are trying to decrease mash pH, not increase it. Forget about color - it's not really important and doubtless is what is causing you to conclude that you need to add chalk and bicarb. Both of these work against your goal (they neutralize the sauermalz or lactic acid).

For an IPA, of course, lactic acid or sauermalz are not exactly traditional. A UK brewer would use "CRS" (carbonate reducing solution which is a mix of sulfuric and hydrochloric acids) but AFAIK you can't get that in the US.

 

[Daddymem]

Where are you seeing high pH? My mash pH is low without adjustments, don't I need to increase it?

 

[Daddymem]

Search for AJ Delange's posts here and elsewhere if you want to know quite a bit.

Wow, lots to digest.

"A good RA for all beers is 0 or less. You should never increase alkalinity (of RA) unless 1) Your mash pH is way low 2) You want bicarbonate taste in your beer. ..."

I do not have a pH meter. Just going by the EZ spreadsheet my pH is way low. The spreadsheet appears to use SRM in the calcs contrary to some of your statements that SRM shouldn't be used.

If I am reading correctly, you are saying use in the range of 1 tsp per 5 gallons of Calcium Chloride which should bring my Calcium levels to the appropriate level. Then maybe some epsom salt to get some magnesium in there (maybe even ignore this?) Then some gypsum to alter the Cl SO4 ratio. Ignore SRM and pH calculations based on it?

Something like this?
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
HCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6 / 3.15
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 23
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0.5
Roasted Grain: 3.5
Beer Color (SRM): 54

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 5 / 0
CaCl2: 4 / 0
MgSO4: 4 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 100 / 66
Mg: 18 / 12
Na: 7 / 7
Cl: 93 / 64
SO4: 196 / 130
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.48 / 0.49

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 11
RA: -71
Estimated pH: 4.86

 

[martinworswick]

heres my profile with a fictitious grain bill and no adjustments-

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 29.3
Mg: 4.1
Na: 2.5
Cl: 1.1
SO4: 7.6
HCO3: 82

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 4.224 / 10.032
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 14.326
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0.6612
Roasted Grain: 0
Beer Color (SRM): 12

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 0 / 0
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 29 / 29
Mg: 4 / 4
Na: 3 / 3
Cl: 1 / 1
SO4: 8 / 8
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.14 / 0.14

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 67
RA: 44
Estimated pH: 5.35

so, as my ph falls within the ideal range should i do nothing? or should i try and get my RA below 0? ca,mg and so all fall below recommended brewing ranges,is this something to try and remedy or just ignore?

i remember listening to a brewstrong podcast about water and they used the example of 4 german styles with very similar recipes but differing water profiles which gave the different flavours, is it only in situations like this that you would actually try and match a particular profile?

 

[remilard]

Where are you seeing high pH? My mash pH is low without adjustments, don't I need to increase it?

On my Hanna meter. I've never mashed in low and without acid malt rarely mash in below 5.5.

IMO you can ignore magnesium on an all malt beer or really anything close to an all malt beer.

 

[Daddymem]

So you are saying, that even with RO water (fairly close to what I have), your mash pH is high enough? Even with my low alkalinity and RA of 9 without adjustment? The buffer in malt is that high? The magnesium is for the yeast, no? I've read that most malt has enough in it, but I was assuming that is based on a normal water profile and not RO water.

 

[ajdelange]

Where are you seeing high pH? My mash pH is low without adjustments, don't I need to increase it?

I'm not seeing it, I'm suspecting it based on my experience and the way you described the flavor of you beer.

Wow, lots to digest.

Yes, I'm afraid this is a rather complex subject. I've been trying for years to find a simple way to explain it and I just can't. That doesn't mean that there isn't a simple explanation, just that I am too simple to find it.

I do not have a pH meter. Just going by the EZ spreadsheet my pH is way low.

Unfortunately there are just too many variables to allow accurate prediction of mash pH from water chemisty or titratatble acidity measurements of malts. For example, Weyermann says the titratable acidity of their sauermalz in betteen 1 and 2%.

The spreadsheet appears to use SRM in the calcs contrary to some of your statements that SRM shouldn't be used.

I recommended to TH that he take it out all together but he chose not to. I will make recommendations to people but will not tell them what to do (you can guess what kind of a manager I was). I plugged numbers for one of beers into the new EZ spreadsheet and it predicted pH 4.9 wile I actually got 5.3. So it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. He's put lots of caveats on the new version. Heed them.

If I am reading correctly, you are saying use in the range of 1 tsp per 5 gallons of Calcium Chloride which should bring my Calcium levels to the appropriate level.

Yes.

Then maybe some epsom salt to get some magnesium in there (maybe even ignore this?)

Yes.

Then some gypsum to alter the Cl SO4 ratio.

Yes, but I wouldn't put too much stock in the ratio - look at the absolute levels as well.

Ignore SRM and pH calculations based on it?

Yes. Measure your pH. A decent meter is under $100 these days.

Something like this?
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 2
Mg: 1.1
Na: 6.5
Cl: 8.4
SO4: 4.1
HCO3: 11

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 6 / 3.15
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 23
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0.5
Roasted Grain: 3.5
Beer Color (SRM): 54

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 5 / 0
CaCl2: 4 / 0
MgSO4: 4 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 100 / 66
Mg: 18 / 12
Na: 7 / 7
Cl: 93 / 64
SO4: 196 / 130
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.48 / 0.49

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 11
RA: -71
Estimated pH: 4.86

Yes, but your mash pH will very probably not be as low as 4.86. I have said many times that you can't model everything accurately and repeatably enough to predict mash pH but my gut says 5.2-5.5.

 

[Daddymem]

Sweet, I think I got it good enough for what I need for my regular beers. I don't enter contests, and I like my beers, I'd just like to get this one as good as I can...it is for a special celebration in 5 years....I'll be officially cancer free!

I find THs spreadsheet very helpful and I can see using it to assist still.

Thanks for the info!....and patience. I really do appreciate it!

 

[remilard]

So you are saying, that even with RO water (fairly close to what I have), your mash pH is high enough? Even with my low alkalinity and RA of 9 without adjustment? The buffer in malt is that high? The magnesium is for the yeast, no? I've read that most malt has enough in it, but I was assuming that is based on a normal water profile and not RO water.

My water has RA = 12, which is close enough to RO or distilled as to be insignificant.

I am saying that without adding acid, my pH is never low enough.

What we all agree on (I think), is that pilsner malt and distilled water will give a pH of about 5.8.

We also agree that adding darker grain will lower this. Where we disagree is how much. And when I say we, I mean the pH meter and the model disagree.

Not everyone can or wants to own a pH meter, but the observations of those who do use one should be informative.

 

[-TH-]

Not everyone can or wants to own a pH meter, but the observations of those who do use one should be informative.

Since you're offering, I would love to see some of your hard data. It appears that yours is a little different than Kai's. PM me if you'd like.

 

[remilard]

Since you're offering, I would love to see some of your hard data. It appears that yours is a little different than Kai's. PM me if you'd like.

I don't have any data on titratable acidity of various grains or pH of test mashes of specialty grains.

I can give you, for several beers, grist, grist/liquor ratio, mash pH, RA of water used etc. But this isn't the kind of data Kai has published (as far as I know).

 

[-TH-]

I can give you, for several beers, grist, grist/liquor ratio, mash pH, RA of water used etc.

If it's not too much trouble I would greatly appreciate it.

AJ, I would love to see your historical data too (again, if it's not too much trouble).

I certainly don't expect either of you to retype pages of notes just for my sake. But if you've got something easily transmittable...

 

[remilard]

If it's not too much trouble I would greatly appreciate it.

AJ, I would love to see your historical data too (again, if it's not too much trouble).

I certainly don't expect either of you to retype pages of notes just for my sake. But if you've got something easily transmittable...

I should be able to put together a table of grist, liquor ratio, RA and measured pH.

I am home 3 of the next 25 days so realistically it may be a month.

 

[Hound]

Bobby M's videos were a great help. Did he, or anyone else, make videos for the 3.0 version of the calculators?

May be there isn't that much difference between the original and the latest vids? Is it possible to learn how to use them from Bobby M's original 3 videos?

 

[kal]

May be there isn't that much difference between the original and the latest vids? Is it possible to learn how to use them from Bobby M's original 3 videos?

I would say yes. I find that Bobby's videos give a lot of general hints as to how to approach water adjustment and use the original spreadsheets as examples on how to calculate. Everything he talks about is 100% transferrable.

Water adjustment (IMHO) is not a black and white thing... everyone will have different approaches to how they think water should (or should not) be adjusted for certain styles. Part of the trick is learning what works for you through experimentation, trial and error, etc. I think Bobby hits the nail on the head on the approach that should be taken (and how it should be taken). The videos are a great asset.

Kal

 

[Bobby_M]

In general, those videos were a technical pain in the butt with the screen capture and voiceover. We did just get a real fancy USB studio mic at work though so maybe I can work that in eventually.

The major improvement from v1.0 is consideration of the grain make up on predicted mash pH. Basically, you add that info in and then work as if it was the older version. You'll also notice that the affects of chalk are downplayed.

 

[Hound]

Thanks folks. I'll do my best.

 

[Hound]

The water analysis results which I have don't give a Ca reading (I got them from a quarry which ue the same supply as my house - Long story)

Is it possible to deduce the Ca reading form the CaCO3 reading? I know CaCO3 is the 'Total Alkakinity' reading, but would it give an idea of what the Ca reading would be? The Total Alkalinity readings are at 240, 220, 260 and 240 for 4 samples taken over a two month period.....yes these are high I gather. It's all limestone all arond me....hence I'm hoping to do a stout brew.