Water looks ok for brewing

[Sadu]

Hi everyone, I have been having trouble getting a water report but I finally got one. This is all very new to me but I think I'm starting to get a handle on the basics. I just have a few questions to get me started if anyone is able to assist.

Here's the report...

pH 7.27
Residual Alkalinity* 23 ppm as CaCO3
Total Alkalinity 30 ppm as CaCO3
Total Hardness 30 ppm as CaCO3
Calcium Hardness 20 ppm as CaCO3
Magnesium Hardness* 10 ppm as CaCO3
Calcium* 8 ppm
Magnesium* 2 ppm
Chloride 10 ppm
Sulphate 0 ppm
Bicarbonate* 36 ppm
Sodium* 7 ppm

* means the value is calculated.

Punched this all into Brun'water and used a simple Helles recipe (80% pils/20% Vienna) with the Yellow balanced profile just as an example.

Now, I realise this is an advanced topic and there's a lot to learn. But I do have to start somewhere and if I can keep this simple and get a modest improvement to start and at the same time not wreck my beer - then I'm happy with that.

1. My take is that I need a small amount of acid and/or sourmalt + gypsum + calcuim chloride, similar to what the primer says but in smaller amounts. Obviously adjust accordingly for different styles. Does it sound like I'm in the ballpark here? Is that a good start to get a modest improvement

2. The next question is about how the additions are added. Does one treat all the water in one hit or is the mash/sparge done separately? With such small amounts of additions I like the idea of treating everything together.

3. What role does measuring the mash ph play in all of this? If I treat the mash water based on the estimate, surely the damage is done already if a ph test comes back different to expected after 20 mins? If one is looking for modest improvements, is it necessary to check the mash ph every brew?

4. Last question. I have been using the electric jug to boil water for 1 gallon batches and it's very convenient. If I treat all the water in a big brew kettle first can I then heat it in the electric jug as needed? This won't wreck the jug or somehow boil out the minerals that just got put in?

Thanks, always appreciate people's input.

 

[h22lude]

1) You may not need acid to bring the mash pH down. It will depend on the grain bill and what additions you use. This is something you will need to enter into Bru'n Water for each different batch.

2) Each person does it differently but I treat my entire water before I do anything. I usually get 9 gallons and put my additions into that. Some do mash and sparge water separately.

3) You will want a pH meter. Any mash pH estimate calculator you find will be just that...an estimate. I do find my mash pH is usually close but if not you can add lactic acid or baking soda to adjust it. If you estimate it at 5.45 and you get 5.39 or 5.52, I wouldn't worry that much.

4) Additions won't affect anything.

 

[ajdelange]

1. My take is that I need a small amount of acid and/or sourmalt + gypsum + calcuim chloride, similar to what the primer says but in smaller amounts. Obviously adjust accordingly for different styles. Does it sound like I'm in the ballpark here? Is that a good start to get a modest improvement

The water you have is more or less representative of Munich water after decarbonation i.e. around 1 mEq/L calcium, 1.5 mEq/L alkalinity and not much of anything else. As is it is fine for a Helles so you won't want any gypsum. Just the calcium chloride. The sauermalz amount should probably be 3% of the grist if your Pilsner malt is like Weyermanns and you will get a mash pH of around 5.45 but if it is like Rahr Pilsner malt you will need about 5% to get a pH that low.

2. The next question is about how the additions are added. Does one treat all the water in one hit or is the mash/sparge done separately? With such small amounts of additions I like the idea of treating everything together.

That certainly is the easiest and given that your alkalinity is so low you do not need to be concerned about pH rise of runoff. Pre acidfying all the water (mash and sparge) to desired mash pH is always a good idea as then all you have to worry about in acid calculation is that required by the grains. Were you to do this then you would only need 4% sauermalz for the more basic (Rahr) pils and 2% for the more acidic Weyermann.

3. What role does measuring the mash ph play in all of this? If I treat the mash water based on the estimate, surely the damage is done already if a ph test comes back different to expected after 20 mins?

For the most part that is true if, however, one got the out of line reading in a small test mash he could then take what he learned to adjust the acid addition for the actual mash and have a better chance of being close to the target.

If one is looking for modest improvements, is it necessary to check the mash ph every brew?

Until you have brewed with these materials enough to know what the pH is going to be, yes. As noted above the choice of base malt is a big swinger. It really pays to do test mashes and measure until experience is deep enough to be your guide.

4. Last question. I have been using the electric jug to boil water for 1 gallon batches and it's very convenient. If I treat all the water in a big brew kettle first can I then heat it in the electric jug as needed? This won't wreck the jug or somehow boil out the minerals that just got put in?

All you will be adding is a little calcium chloride so the answer is "No"
[/QUOTE]

 

[bdogg171]

Hi everyone, I have been having trouble getting a water report but I finally got one. This is all very new to me but I think I'm starting to get a handle on the basics. I just have a few questions to get me started if anyone is able to assist.



Here's the report...



pH 7.27

Residual Alkalinity* 23 ppm as CaCO3

Total Alkalinity 30 ppm as CaCO3

Total Hardness 30 ppm as CaCO3

Calcium Hardness 20 ppm as CaCO3

Magnesium Hardness* 10 ppm as CaCO3

Calcium* 8 ppm

Magnesium* 2 ppm

Chloride 10 ppm

Sulphate 0 ppm

Bicarbonate* 36 ppm

Sodium* 7 ppm



* means the value is calculated.



Punched this all into Brun'water and used a simple Helles recipe (80% pils/20% Vienna) with the Yellow balanced profile just as an example.



Now, I realise this is an advanced topic and there's a lot to learn. But I do have to start somewhere and if I can keep this simple and get a modest improvement to start and at the same time not wreck my beer - then I'm happy with that.



1. My take is that I need a small amount of acid and/or sourmalt + gypsum + calcuim chloride, similar to what the primer says but in smaller amounts. Obviously adjust accordingly for different styles. Does it sound like I'm in the ballpark here? Is that a good start to get a modest improvement



2. The next question is about how the additions are added. Does one treat all the water in one hit or is the mash/sparge done separately? With such small amounts of additions I like the idea of treating everything together.



3. What role does measuring the mash ph play in all of this? If I treat the mash water based on the estimate, surely the damage is done already if a ph test comes back different to expected after 20 mins? If one is looking for modest improvements, is it necessary to check the mash ph every brew?



4. Last question. I have been using the electric jug to boil water for 1 gallon batches and it's very convenient. If I treat all the water in a big brew kettle first can I then heat it in the electric jug as needed? This won't wreck the jug or somehow boil out the minerals that just got put in?



Thanks, always appreciate people's input.

On 3. I have found Brun'water to be almost spot on with ph estimates, I used my ph meter for a few brews and it was either spot on or a point off at the most, if you're just trying to get your feet wet so to speak then enter all the necessary info into the spreadsheet (grain bill, water amounts, etc.) and don't be overly concerned with ph readings, what Brun'water estimates will be close enough, then once you get more comfortable with building your water...well it's up to you. BTW I start with bottled RO and cut it with my faucet water sometimes (or not) depending on what I'm shooting for and build from there. Just my $0.01.

 

[bdogg171]

Duplicate?

 

[bdogg171]

Duplicate

 

[Sadu]

These are all great replies, much appreciated. I did actually brew this Helles with 3% sourmalz, nothing else (guesstimating before I got the report) and it came out very good.

This concept of test mashes is interesting. I brew every recipe as 1 gallon anyway. If it comes out ok but not great I adjust something and brew another 1 gallon, and only go bigger once I am really happy with it. I think these water adjustments should fit well into this process, just more variables to adjust.

But what does a test mash look like? Would that mean milling an extra say 200g of the recipe for a mini mash and just add it to the boil if it comes out good?

I'm also not against brewing 1 gallon smash recipes for a while to see how the ph varies on different base malts. I use a lot of pils and Vienna, the maltster (Gladfield NZ) says their malts are more basic than acidic.

 

[ajdelange]

On 3. I have found Brun'water to be almost spot on with ph estimates, I used my ph meter for a few brews and it was either spot on or a point off at the most,...

A point!!?? 3.42 or 6.42 instead of 5.42? Throw away that meter.

 

[ajdelange]

This concept of test mashes is interesting. I brew every recipe as 1 gallon anyway. If it comes out ok but not great I adjust something and brew another 1 gallon, and only go bigger once I am really happy with it. I think these water adjustments should fit well into this process, just more variables to adjust.

Your batches are almost test mashes then and you clearly grasp the concept.

But what does a test mash look like? Would that mean milling an extra say 200g of the recipe for a mini mash and just add it to the boil if it comes out good?

Yes, about 200 - 500 g of the grist ground, mixed with the appropriate volume of mash water and held at mash in temperature long enough for the pH to stabilize. Most people do these the night before and do any necessary calculation then so they are ready to roll in the AM. Most people throw the test mash out but I suppose you could save it and add it to the main mash. Usually it is done to avoid risking an error in 5 or more gallons of beer to be brewed. If you are only doing a gallon at a time perhaps it isn't worth the trouble. Just apply what you learn in mashing a batch to the next batch.

I'm also not against brewing 1 gallon smash recipes for a while to see how the ph varies on different base malts. I use a lot of pils and Vienna, the maltster (Gladfield NZ) says their malts are more basic than acidic.

I wonder what that means. Proton deficit WRT normal mash pH I suppose. This is the case for all base malts that I know anything about. There are ways of specifying exactly what a statement like that means and I'd love to see maltsters undertake to do that.

 

[bdogg171]

A point!!?? 3.42 or 6.42 instead of 5.42? Throw away that meter.

Sorry I meant like brun' estimated 5.2ish and meter read 5.3.

 

[Sadu]

I wonder what that means. Proton deficit WRT normal mash pH I suppose. This is the case for all base malts that I know anything about. There are ways of specifying exactly what a statement like that means and I'd love to see maltsters undertake to do that.

This is the statement from the maltster which I based that from...

"Malt pH can be influenced by the barley variety, how it has been grown and managed on the farm, nitrogen levels, steep water, degrees of modification, the kilning temperature used, kilning moisture and the type of heat applied during kilning. All these factors and more will have an impact on the final pH of malts.
Gladfield Malts typically have a high pH. If we were to lower this pH, we could inadvertently negatively impact other factors such as fermentability, Kolbach Index extracts and the flavour of the finished beer.

You can easily lower the malt pH in the brew house mash by using Sour Grapes Malt. As a guide, 1% of this milled malt will drop mash pH by 0.1. We recommend between 1% to 5% of our Sour Grapes Malt is used to achieve target mash pH. Remember though that lowering the pH can lead to a reduction in flavour or extract, so go easy!"